News

.NET Server MCSE and MCSA Plans Changed

Expect the unexpected: Key certification track to be retooled for 2003, which may affect current MCSA/MCSE candidates.

Microsoft has decided to restructure its certification offerings for Windows .NET Server 2003. The changes encompass upgrade exams and a retooling of the way that the MCSE and MCSA credentials tie together.

A .NET Server-related FAQ posted on the Microsoft Web site Dec. 2 states that full details about the certification tracks will be available in early 2003. But it does reveal some clues about what is to come.

Dan Truax
Dan Truax, Director of Microsoft Certification Business & Product Strategy

Microsoft has decided to back away from the mix-and-match strategy it first announced in January (see "Windows .NET Exams in Pipeline," Jan. 23, 2002, http://mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=452). At that time, the company said candidates could take both Windows 2000 and .NET exams toward the MCSE or MCSA titles. Now, the certification group has decided to eliminate that and simply offer upgrade exams for those holding Win2K credentials.

According to Dan Truax, Director of Microsoft Certification Business & Product Strategy, "Now, if you're an MCSA on Windows 2000, when we release the .NET track, you'll likely take one exam, assuming your elective carries over. For MCSE, again assuming your electives carry over and still count, you will probably take one or two exams at most."

Truax said that unlike 70-240, the four-hour accelerated exam for moving to the Win2K MCSE, these tests will be about the same length as the regular exams. "Our plan right now is to make them as close to a normal exam time as possible, which is why you need to be at that credential level on Win2K — because they build on that knowledge." At the same time, he said, "The reason we're able to do the upgrade exams is because there's still a lot of similarities [between Win2K and .NET]."

The new MCSA title will be available in the summer timeframe, Truax predicted. He expected beta exams to begin in springtime. The MCSE title will be available in the fall. This follows the schedule first announced in June (see "Windows .NET Server Exams: Spring or Summer 2003?" June 6, 2002, http://mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=493). The .NET product line itself is expected to be widely available in April.

The changes to the certifications came, Truax said, after talking with current titleholders. "We could have pulled that [combined Win2K/.NET] path off. The more and more we talked to customers — and we talked to a bunch — we heard that they don't want to take exams for .NET Server, to become a Win2K person. What they wanted was, if they took .NET Server exams, they wanted to become a .NET Server MCSE, which is why we've moved to the upgrade strategy."

According to Truax, the changes are a result of an extensive job task analysis. That process involves bringing in customers who perform a particular type of job — such as administering a network. Microsoft "captures" the tasks the study subjects perform in those jobs. That results in a list of several hundred tasks. Then Microsoft does quantitative research by doing broader surveys to prioritize the list. From there, it develops a job role, with a list of tasks performed in that role. From that, the group scopes out the different credentials and the job skills needed for those titles. The latest analysis was started in January, Truax said, and took six months to complete.

Microsoft had originally announced a track of exams that matched up with the Win2K tests in July 2001. (see "Redmond Unveils Windows .NET Server Exams," July 27, 2001, http://mcpmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=368). At that time, whereas the server exam for Win2K was named 70-215, Installing, Configuring and Administering Windows 2000 Server, the .NET exam was named 70-275, Installing, Configuring and Administering Windows .NET Server.

Now, Truax said, those pending names are no longer applicable. "I think those titles will change. When we went through the [job task analysis] and looked at what [systems administrators (SAs)] do and what [systems engineers (SEs)] do, we pulled some things out of the SE set. We started looking at a green field — how would we do this? Let the weighting prioritize the tasks to drive the naming."

"If you're on the SA track, you're more focused on troubleshooting and administering. When you're in the SE range, you're going to be in the design, planning and implementing areas."

That analysis also led to the decision to tie the two titles more closely. As Truax explained, "Whereas if you look at the current Windows 2000 track, if you set down the path to become an SA, you had to take a special exam to become an SA. For the .NET Server track, you will become an SA along the way. It's a true superset-subset. That was part of our rebuilding or creating a new track."

The new exams may offer new item types, though Truax declined to provide details. "You'll see us investing over time in technology with our exams. You'll see that more and more. Whether it's product interaction or simulation, you'll see us going that way aggressively over the next few years."

You can read the Microsoft FAQ about the changes here: http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcp/mcse/faq.asp#c. You can read about the new exam types at: http://www.microsoft.com/traincert/mcpexams/faq/innovations.asp.

About the Author

Dian L. Schaffhauser is a freelance writer based in Northern California.

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Reader Comments:

Thu, Jan 15, 2009 Anonymous Anonymous

badly need your help. Only some people get what they want. Those are the people who show up to get it.
I am from Ukraine and too poorly know English, give true I wrote the following sentence:

Mon, Feb 24, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Guys -

If you're not a paper MCSE/MCDBA/MCSA, don't worry about it. W2003 is just W2K with an XP interface and beefed up AD, policy, and er... that's about it. Of course M$ wants to extract as much money from you as poss - the real issue is that as of XP, it becomes a lot harder for small/medium companies to "borrow" other peoples' copies of Windoze and install them on their machines. W2K will be around for a long, long time because of M$'s licensing policy ... so get your MCSE w2k, and "up"grade it at your leisure to W2003. Your W2K cert will be an asset to you for some time yet.

Mon, Feb 17, 2003 Ibrahim Mohammed Abuja,Nigeria

Excellent indeed! IT is dynamic,so also the tools we use,if there is improvement in our recent technologies,it is a must for all IT professionals to validate their skills by learning and taking new exams.If you are currently NT 4.0 or win2k Engineer,you need to learn about windows server 2003 and upgrade your skills.But my suggestion to MS, i want them to provide a standard time limit for the ceritificate.IT professional will know that they have to renew their cerificates after certain period of time,just like the way Cisco has being doing.On my own part is a good attempt to move us by introducing new path for MCSE.OOPS!.MS should also try and give discount for existing MCSE holders and MCP holders as incentives.

Thu, Feb 13, 2003 Bobbie Ghana

I think those worrying about upgrading are those who got certified the wrong way. I do not see any big thing about improving ones skill to use newer technololgies.
Bobbie

Sun, Jan 19, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

It can be seem that Microsft 's business stragety.. If Supporting staff like MCSE..cost much then how it can be dominate the market !U think... yr boss would pay U much $$$ on this ? I wonder So if those product license and Support costly ..then the market will shift easily to another OS. So now they would have own idea How to "DOMINATE " the market and control lower cost of Supporting Mainatence. ( this is called Indirect Market Domination )

Fri, Jan 17, 2003 AJ PA

Why can't Microsoft just come out with one unified upgrade tests for it MCSE's anyhow, instead of making us take all these exams again? This is the second time I finally get a MCSE, which is outdated several months later from the new release and after studying my gooch off to pass 6 or 7 exams, I have to immediately take several more to keep my certification current. Why can't you just make one freaking exam for your loyal engineers to upgrade like novell did or used to who value certifications? Microsoft even pisses on people dedicated to their products. Thanks, I mean freaking Thanks.

Fri, Jan 17, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

I never remember reading that the 2000 exams woulg get a .net cert. I did read to take the 2000 track because that knowledge wotld be relevant to the .net track. Lastly .net is gone- now MS Windows Server 2003. Good Luck

Fri, Jan 17, 2003 zubin mohali

BAKWAAS, MICROSOFT SUCKS
WHAT THEY THINK, R WE FREE TO DO THEIR CERTIFICATIONS OR DO WE HAVE EXTRA MONEY TO SPEND ON THESE STUPID CERTIFICATIONS. MICROSOFT JUST STOP DOING NONSENSE AND CONCENTRATE ON MAKING SOFTWARE GOOD EFFICIENT AND SECURE.

Thu, Jan 16, 2003 Linda R. Wisconsin

People who are surprised at this "new" program have really had their eyes (and ears) closed. If you have been around at all, there have always been exams that stand for your CURRENT status, and usually in the form of upgrades.
As so many have already said: "You don't have to take the upgrade!!!" You will be certified! When the time is more appropriate for you and your personal finances are in better shape (everyone's with you on that issue) then you can take your upgrade. If your paycheck doesn't demand it, don't worry about it.

Thu, Jan 16, 2003 Linda R. Wisconsin

People who are surprised at this "new" program have really had their eyes (and ears) closed. If you have been around at all, there have always been exams that stand for your CURRENT

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Pete Oregon

Seems to me that MCSE's don't get the respect and money they used to because there are too many people out there who took classes to get certified. If you can't afford a $125 for a few exams and you need to take a class to pass it, you don't deserve to be called an engineer! Too many technicians out there who think they're engineers simple because they passed a few tests.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Juls Florida

I agree, not another dime from me, I'm done, they raised the cost, expire our exams force us to upgrade and did it get a dime more money or respect - NO! And to the person who said excellent no more paper MCSE's - screw you, I have a family to take care of, a job to do, and a life to live, I do not have the time and money to waste on these never-ending exams. I am going to continue my movement away from MS.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Salvatore Lo Verso Palermo

I think Microsoft sould think much more to MCSE money and time investment first, and think more to mantain difficult present exams, despite introduce even new.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Mike NJ

Keep going Microsoft, pave the way for Linux with your ever-changing standards and extra costs. I am Mcse in NT 4 and W2k. I am done forking out loads of cash for tests only to see braindumps on the Internet with the exact test for any dope to read and pass with. I will buy a few books and learn on the job but I think the cert is losing value. I feel sorry for those of you trying to get started in the industry. When I got my Mcse in W2k, I got nothing. No new certificate, not even a freaking lapel pin. I have the same cert in my office from 4.0. I have to verbally tell people I am MCSE in 2000. So what is my incentive for .Net? Nah, MCSE in 2 products is good enough for me.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Phil Pennsylvania

Microsoft is just as bad as Novell when it comes to their education or training operations. Novell atleast honors a 4.11/5.1 and 6 CNE. Sure in time the CNE in an older track would expire, but not as fast as the MCSE does.
This has nothing to do with being a paper MCSE or MCSA. Its a significant money maker for all cert vendors.
MS does as it pleases, charges an insane amount for licensening and expects you to upgrade every 6-9 months. They are the bullies and we kiss their feet?
I hope Linux and Novell really embarass, not that they have not already in some aspects, Microsoft and its "innovative , ingenious,technology". Every dog has its day.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 John PA

What we need is tougher certs, not easier certs. To have a new cert level for each release of Windows Server is fine with me as long as there is an upgrade path for those already certified in the previous version. Also, I'd like an Expert level cert with hands on testing like CCIE. The only issue is that MS keeps changing their cert strategy so we don't know what is what. This is confusing the marketplace and diminishing the value of the certification. MS should decide their cert strategy and stick to it.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 MCT, MCSE USA

Boycott this farce! Standing together is what preserved the NT4 certification.

If you feel the .NET certs are not for you, (in which case most of us are still paying for W2K certs) then by all means, DONT SUPPORT THE .NET CERTS.

Our unified opinion is the only voice by which Microsoft can gauge public acceptance in the evolution of technology. If we don't like it, boycott it!

The quick release of changing technology creates hardships in the marketplace. It's often difficult for companies to make technology investments on a regular basis. When companies leap into new technology, a ROI is expected. Can companies assertain a full ROI if technology is drastically changing every six months?
I strongly doubt it.

Is it safe to digest new technology at the rate in which Microsoft is spooning out?

You decide.

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Steven USA

A special thanks to Micro$oft's licensing and certification muscle-mandates -- which encouraged me to investigate LINUX. I'm delighted to have discovered Red Hat and very content to be working with their robust product and on their certification program. You folks can take the $ in Micro$oft and shove it!

Wed, Jan 15, 2003 Jon (IT Manager) London

This just goes to prove it doesn't it....

Win 2k and .Net are so similar that there seems little point in forcing companies into a rigid upgrade regime.... .NET will obviously chew up more system resources, take up more room on the server, have new bugs and security holes, and in the meanwhile provide not a jot of enhanced operation.

I could understand the need to upgrade my MCSE from NT to Win 2k, because it provided a number of additions and enhancements, it was truly a new O/S, however the upgrade from Win 2k to .NET is unlikely to provide similar, so why would I recommend this expenditure to my company? Simple, I won't... We're not just talking about the expense of the O/S itself, there's the cost in man hours and enhanced servers as well... We'll always be playing catch up, so you might play the game your own way... Get the exam at your leisure, if you've got a job, then keep it!

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Scott Dallas

Hey people certs are not everything. I have my MCP on the NT4.0 track. I needed two electives to get the MCSE but MS said they were going to kill the NT4 track so I waited in favor of the W2K MCSE. Still dont have that one. Yet, I still support W2K pro, W2K server, and XP. But you know my clients could care less if I have the certs on those OS platforms or not. All they care about is that I know what I'm doing and that I keep their networks up and running. The company I work for has gone in behind a few companies that had "MCSE Certified" people on staff and fixed the screw ups that these people have created. ( I thought being an MCSE means you know what you are doing???) I do believe one needs to get technical manuals on the products you support and my company does. We are encouraged to read these manuals, which we do, and if we want to take the test then go for it. I think to much was placed on being certified in the mid 90's and that that is carring on into todays market.
I think companies need to focus on can you do the job and not are you certified.
Again from past experience I have seen "Certified MCSE's" that cant do the job. Get the books, read them, learn the product so you can support the product not just so you can get the cert because the market says you need to.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 John Troini Gilroy

There is no reason not to support a blend of W2K and Server 2003 skills. Not to do so would imply that there is a significant discontinuity between W2K and Server 2003.

Microsoft should understand that business' actually require their employees to work in between certification efforts.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Willie Loh Singapore

They should follow the similar concept of Cisco offering people the re-certification route.

Ms taught we are so free to take so many exams at one time. It will confuse everyone who do not know which exam to take and in the end who want to take Ms Exam.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Hey Bill Slow down. I think the best bet for enterprises is to skip every other version. there just not enuff gain or time in a 18 month product cycle.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Aaron West Chester, PA.

My response not to this particular change, but to ALL of Microsoft's BS, from licensing, to ethics, was to certify on Cisco and Sun products instead, and choose to accept positions that do not include working with Microsoft products.

I know that I'm only one person, which is a mere drop in the bucket, but if more people like me who are fed up with the crap seek alternate jobs, soon, Microsoft will have no one left to implement and support their products.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 RC Boston

I stopped playing the cert game half way thru the MCSE NT track. I'm glad I never went back. If MS could write a decent OS they would not have to replace it every 2 years. It's a shame that they can lie and get away with it. I expect it from my lawyer, car salesman, and politician. I guess when you’ve got too much money the only thing that brings you pleasure is making others suffer.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Time to upgrade to red hat

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Cert_DUDE CAL

Hey dumpers cmon and get a job, no one hires for certs anyways, they are pointless

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 David Sacramento, CA

I sure am glad I'm not the only one. Times they are a changing in IT and all I have to say is "I'm Done". No more MS tests for me.
I can't take this anymore. I study and I study. I tell my friends and family I'm sorry but I must study. For months and months I lock my self in a room and read this stuff. Finally the big day. I passed. I call all my family I call my friends that I haven't seen in months and tell them of my achievement. We dance, we drink and celebrate for a total or 2 weeks!
When the new update tests are announced again. Please! I'm tired of testing, I'm tired of telling friends I can't attend their functions. God forbid I was to ever have time to get married and start a family. I just don't have the time to waste anymore. Screw the money, my time is way more valuable to me than the $100.00 test and the $85.00 book by far. With all this studing who the hell has the time to pursue selling this MS technolgy to businesses and implimenting it anyway. Not me.
Its time to move on, Its been a real treat for sure MS.
Linux and Cisco certs seem to be much more longterm investments. Then I can spend some time with friends and family and get back to my golf game.

David in Sacramento

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

By the way, Dean Burgess is a fag

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

You guys are all losers anyway. Bunch of young terds coming out of college thinking they can step in at 50K with certs. Fuk y'all. Now you don't like it? Good quite the biz...too many of you boff bangers anyway!

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous New Zealand

What the hell is being a paper MCSE or not got to do with it , its still going to cost you valuable time and money AGAIN, and if .NET as successful as win2k nobody will want to upgrade for over 12 months anyway (so you get 0 return on your investment that year). Mmmm Linux apt-get upgrade, oh now i have the upgrade - free and its running, with out reboot. ;)

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Time for Linux

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Dean Burgess Western Mass

I agree with the change. If I take a .NET exam, I want a separate certification. With A plus exams, you have to recertify every two years. Well, with such OS changes, you should recertify as well. I think it is better for the IT field to carry on such credentials as MCSE NT, MCSE 2000, MCSE .NET. It just shows how eager you are to change with the times. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen as my Uncle Olough used to say. Put up or get out. Makes more room for me. The market is a cut throat business. I feel that if you don't want to move with the times and compete against me, then you might as well as quit now. Because I am going to be there to take your job. I here the sanitation department is hiring!!!!LOL

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Brandon MCP Indiana

I'm not thrilled of Microsoft's decision. But I'm glad I found out now. I've been procrastinating my last 3 MCSE2k exams and now. I think i'll just stop where i' left off. And go with the higher track. Mysterious coincidence.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Monkey Boy Cal

Listen up people. Either roll over and follow Uncle Bill and keep your job or get a lawyer and sue em for being a Liar.
This is your 2 options. Plain and Simple.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Hoopa-Boopa . . Outer Netlandia

Ha-Ha!! . . Told Ya So !!!! That's why I didn't do my MCSE2k, . . cuz' I saw right through the bastards plan 2 years ago. I mean puh-leeze . . . Are you all really surprised at this? Are we all talking about the same Microsoft here?? That I've just loved since 3.51? I mean come on people, "fool me once shame on you . . . etc". This is simply the Gatesians' roundabout way of "thinning out the underbrush" so to speak . . if you wanna' play, you gotta' pay. Or in this case, my employer'll pay . .

All I want is a server with a frickin' laser beam on it . . is that too much to ask??

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Kevin Maryland

Why can't Computer certifications be like other professions?
I'm also a CPA and a real estate agent.
I took the Certified Public Accountant exam a long time ago and also the real estate agent exam. To keep them, I have to take continuing education. I don't have to take a new exam everytime the tax code changes or when real estate laws change.
The MCSE should only have to be taken 1 time and then have continuing education. How many established veterans of the industry have the time to study for the exams all over again. Do they really need to? No, their experience is the key. I personally have decided that I've had it. After doing MCSE for nt and MCSE for 2000, I've decided I'm not doing any more.

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Glad I didn't even take the design exam to complete my MCSE 2k after passing 070-240 over two years ago. 070-240 was a piece of cake if you were not a paper MCSE. I know my product now and will learn .NET and know it in the future! I am all for getting rid of the paper certs -they are a nuisance to productivity. BTW, there is also the RHCE!!!

Tue, Jan 14, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

Got my CNE; lost it because of an update; took all the tests over; then got ECNE; then MCNE;;OK MS killed Netware; so I don't care got MCSE NT, then MCSE 2K. I can tell all of you this..IT WILL NEVER STOP. A career in computers is like chasing your tail...at least they pay us OK....well if you can get a job nowadays.

Mon, Jan 13, 2003 Martin Germany

That´s one of the typical MS Bullshit decision´s. I can understand that more and more IT-Stuff (MCSE´s ) don´t want the MCSE Exam´s anymore because MS make the hard worked Result trashily by this policy of changing there Trainingplan´s how they want. They request an amount of money for certifications and change the value of the certifications within the certification period. I personaly decide to invest in future my money in exam´s and certifications wich keep her value like Linux, ITIL or Novell. We have seen the results in the NT4 to W2K Upgrade policy from MS where they earn a lot of Money for a 70-240 Course where in fact over 90 % couldn´t reach the required points. This is again such a Money collecting decision and I will not support this Certificating System and in general Microsoft Applications anymore.

Mon, Jan 13, 2003 Peter Hong Kong

1. How long should a normal guy get pass all seven exams and earn MCSE2K credential? it's reasonable to take two months time for one exam, that is a total 14 months to pass all exams (assume one take pass and no re-take)

2. MS upgrades the MCSE exam every 18-24 months, that is everyone should on and on study and take the exam if they want to keep their credential

Thu, Jan 9, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

thanks bill!

Thu, Jan 9, 2003 Brian McJilton Baltimore

Time to start learning Linux. I can't believe this.

Thu, Jan 9, 2003 Tharg Antarctica

Bye bye MCSE, hello Linux+

Mon, Jan 6, 2003 Muhammad Nawaz Pakistan

I am great fan of Microsoft but on Certification side complete one and think about the next one. Although it is good but on Financial side it is much difficult here to pay $$$ why they not ask in Our currency? then we are willing to do lot upgrading :) .I like to keep increasing my knowlede.

Fri, Jan 3, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

I love you people that bag on MCSE's and actually read MCP mag. Why are you even posting?
Listen to Carlos and save your 10g and spend 100g for a degree and go jobless because of the poor economy.

Thu, Jan 2, 2003 Anonymous Anonymous

I guess if you like having the most current certifications, then it would be best to keep upgrading to the newest Certifications. However, if you are more concerned about skills as they apply to the position you are currently in, then why worry about it. If you work for a good company that is using Windows NT/2000, then certify on Win2k. If the company plans to upgrade to .net, then upgrade your certifications at that time. If you work for a good company why worry about what Microsoft says. We get certified so that we can be marketable in order to get the job we want. If you have that job and you are certified on the products your company uses, then be content. Why worry about something that doesn't apply to you yet.

Tue, Dec 31, 2002 Carlos Miami

Wake up people! If your company doesn't want to pay for your certifications, why are you wasting your personal money on this crap? As an investment? As an employment skill set? Any seasoned IT professional should not be spending their personal money on certifications unless they just want to test their knowledge against some exam for the hell of it. For newcomers to the IT field, don't waste your money and time with certifications. Take your 10k dollars and get a college education in Computer Science. I have never been asked what technologies I had to study for my B.S. in CS. Why? Because the true professionals in the business world understand the value of a good solid university degree. What you learn from in a recognized ACM program at a university will hold a stronger lifetime value than some garbage that any of these companies will put out. That's my view of this after 12 years of studying and work in the only field that I truly love.

Mon, Dec 30, 2002 Eric Lai Malaysia

Well i don't like MS plan.It just waste my money and time to study for MCSE and MCSA.I still have 1 more paper for MCSA. May be i just finish it off and forget about MCSE and go for RCHE with is more worth my money.

Tue, Dec 24, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I can see why MS wants to change their minds about the .NET certs as there are lots of "Dump Monkeys" around. But the Linux OS sounds much more interesting and much less expensive, free in fact...... Thanks for helping me make my decision Uncle Bill.

Sun, Dec 22, 2002 Stephane Switzerland

Could MS realize that, here in Europe, most big comapnies have not even started their migration to W2K...They are now planning it and will probably not give it up to jump on .Net ! Nonetheless, IT pros will have to re-certify in order to
master a new technology that is widely not deployed yet. Administering mixed environments with NT 4.0 antics and .Net
futur tailored solutions will become quite a challenge, one that MS has not prepared us to face ! Could you let us swallow before refeeding...

Sat, Dec 21, 2002 James USA

It's a BULLSHITS! I am not going to upgrade my W2K to .NET... It's better to go for CCIE and forget about MS!
Bye MS. I used to respect this corp. But not anymore...

Fri, Dec 20, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

i took the windows xp exam instead of the windows 2000 pro, and all the rest were w2k based exams, does this mean that i'll have to take the w2k pro exam just to get MCSA/MCSE?

Fri, Dec 20, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

So the Microsoft cannot really be trust,
he can say something and say another
thing different time, you keep on continue certification, you waist your time and money.

Fri, Dec 20, 2002 MCSE (NOT A PAPER ONE BTW Anonymous

WEll here is the thing in all the tests that I have taken and passed I have only 1 time taken any where NEAR The time limit. That was my first Microsoft test. (ANd to be honest I was not as well prepared for that test as I should have been. I passed with a good score but it tooke me a while.)

So I could care less if Microsoft gives me 5 hours the test will most likley not take that long.


Anonymous 2 says: Exam 70-219 Design active directories now are a mandatory. 280 minutes that is 4 hours and 40 minutes just less than five hours. Any person under any test of more than 3 hours become fatigued, and the 5 hours cover every point of the subject. This is a mad exam!!! Designed to fail. It does not represent not a design style at all. A note to Microsoft: in the real life the design is open book subject that will has multiple scenarios and will be revised and discussed before implemented. The exam should be at the most 3 hours, three questions and a pass mark of 50% no more.

Fri, Dec 20, 2002 MCSE Jennifer Indiana

The problem I see is this. The economy and the Job Market both suck right now.
So it is a hard time to do this.

Employeers are not going to shell out the money to help employees get the new certs. Employees will be leary of shelling out the money with layoffs looming.

Me I am out of work and I know that potential employers want to see the latetest credentials on a resume. How can you afford even the test with no income??

I know from my stand point I would precive this in a better light if the econmy were not so shaky.

Instead I see it as MS way of making sure that the recession doesn't hit them as hard.

Just my 2 cents

Thu, Dec 19, 2002 Bull Bull

Bull Shift

Wed, Dec 18, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Hi, guys. It is industry standard to have the upgrade exam when there is a new release. Check out Novell, Cisco, or others. But, the problem is what Bill said when he tried to make people take 2K tests.

Wed, Dec 18, 2002 lastgen US

125 dollars per exam a few times a year to stay up to date is not that bad. If you cant afford that than you need to throw it all on a credit card and get even more certs because you obviously aren't being paid very well. Not to mention the fact that if your employer isn't reimbursing you for your exams than you should really consider finding a decent company to work for. .... Technology changes faster than even the people developing that technology can predict, and if you can't keep up than move out of the way and make it a little easier for the people who can. For those of you who insist that MS products and certs are so terrible, quit saying you'll go get that linux cert or whatever and just do it. You can contact mcphelp@microsoft.com and have all of your MS certifications revoked if you really want to put some distance between you and MS. Everyone just loves to be so critical of this company. Just about every company on our little blue earth that uses computers to any degree uses MS products in some way shape or form. Yet some of you who likely owe your careers to the success of this company will continue to bash it. If you're so unhappy with the place you find yourself driving to each morning than find a new place to drive, maybe then we can stop hearing your complaints.

Wed, Dec 18, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

i can understand why micorsoft updates their exams so often, to keep people up to date on how their software works. but, at the same time, they charge so much for the exams that not everyone can afford to keep up. so it is a catch 22 when it really all comes down to it. MS wants to keep people knowlegeable on their product but who can afford to shell out 125 a test? i know i cant. and i think it is crazy to ask someone to do that, therefore they should offer a lower price to people who have already gone through the riggers of getting their certs the first time and for people who are going through it for the first time should pay full price because they have not earned that privledge yet. to me this would be fair for the people trying to keep up with a testing system that changes with times. although, it does seem to me that they do change it too often and too much but still i can see atleast one reason why they would do it.

Wed, Dec 18, 2002 Edward Boston, MA

I wish I was UNIX certified instead of MCSE/MCSA 2k & NT4. I feel the last two years were a waist of time. I could find a job easier. A UNIX or Cisco cert is worth more. I'm studing for Cisco now because i'm sick of MS certs. LATER MS!!!

Wed, Dec 18, 2002 Kit Germany

Well this is good cause I will finish my W2K MCSA. And then do the .NET Upgrade Test before they take it away like they did for NT 4.0.

And guess what folks after that I am done with MS Certs and doing LPI 1(because Linux is freedom from a cert that does not get you that many more jobs anyways). Then LPI 2 the next year. Thats's right folks waste your life on worthe less MS certs.

Tue, Dec 17, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

We have to understand that Microsoft will do anything to get more and more money from you and me. That's all buddy. Don't be surprised if they change their mind tomorrow and say that your MCSE 2k is not valid any more.

Tue, Dec 17, 2002 This B IT Anonymous

Has anyone noticed the decline in IT jobs/salary? Seems like an MCSE is not worth the trouble anymore.

Tue, Dec 17, 2002 Michael C II Tulsa, OK

Just more money from the poor! The validity of the test will remain unchanged. Certs are certs!

Mon, Dec 16, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

You know what having a cert or title after ya name really ask myself this question: "given I have these qualifications (MCSE, college grade, some job experience etc), what makes employers want to hire me?" Is it my personality or is it some of my qualifications? If you ask ya employer this, I bet most of them will have no response right off the bat. Same for your interview man, why would they want to interview you? So it doesnt matter which cert u have or will pursue, it depends on ya will to do such a thing, or employer requirement.

Mon, Dec 16, 2002 Zman Paris

am gona take the new tests then eat the result papers, make a big sh*t and send it to bill!

Mon, Dec 16, 2002 ZMAN Paris

MCSE (NT4)was supposed to retire... then it became MCSE NT4, then we were told that there is a new MCSE2000 but that we could take .NET exams... grrrrr.... an now there will be 2 path - one for 2000 and one for .net ! If anyone in the world of IT gets it - please explain MS strategies... you guys at MS should really stop making your strategic planning sessions after your 'reve' parties!!! hehehe... or is it something that comes naturally with the job title?
what next.? hummmmm? ??? you will revive the 70-240 for $500 ???
am going to CISCO next... who knows... maybe they are more focused on what they are doing... or who knows... maybe I will try this new carzy FCPE or FCPA...
I've got to tell my boss to use UNIX instead of MS Servers... and some Linix falvors for Wks! this MS is really getting too crazy...

Fri, Dec 13, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Thank you and _uck you too!!! Bill

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I realized that this upgrade business is a good idea but I disagree with the number of exams bit. Suppose the MCSE/MCSA .net is together. Now given you are Win2K MCSA and want to get MCSA .net. I think you need to take 1 upgrade exam. Fair. Now if you are Win2K MCSA and want to get MCSE .net. Should need to take 2 upgrade exams. Why? Look at it this way. MCSA 2000 to MCSA .net takes 1 exam. Now given you are MCSA .net which in the future .net track may need a couple of exams to become MCSE .net. So the 2nd upgrade exam will cover those remaining material to become MCSE .net. Remember these upgrade exams only apply to Win2K MCSAs. Now suppose you are Win2K MCSE. You want to get MCSA .net. The answer here I believe is impossible 'cos if you are already MCSE why bother with MCSA plus the fact that if you get MCSE .net you also get MCSA .net. So for Win2K MCSE the only way to upgrade is to become MCSE .net and that SHOULD TAKE ONLY 1 EXAM. So a recap MCSA2k to MCSA.net = 1; MCSA2k to MCSE.net = 2; MCSE2k to MCSA.net = not allowed; MCSE2k to MCSE.net = 1. Now the amount of material tested by the MCSA2k-MCSA.net and the MCSE2k-MCSE.net would be different (the MCSE2k-MCSE.net would cover much more). Therefore, I don't think it's worth upgrading to MCSE.net unless it is only 1 exam given you are MCSE2k.

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 Greggie Anonymous

The knocking of certified people who don't perform up to par is a red herring. The fact is that the IT field, as a whole, has a higher percentage of people who don't fully know what they are doing than it should PERIOD. Solidly established professions like medicine, law, engineering, and teaching--simply by dint of their ancientness--have all institutionalized some form of mentoring to formalize the education of their members through guided practice. Such ubiquitous formal systemization does not exist in IT. Workers are consistently exploited for the sake of meeting arbitrary and contrived "business requirements." Such persons are in no wise protected or truly respected. "Real" professions have "real" leaders; they possess a "real" hierarchy that protects and nurture their members while serving institutional goals. Stop knocking people for striving to educate and better themselves in this all-too-young field (through certification) without benefit of what makes a profession truly professional. There is no other "real" choice in our current business climate. Wouldn't it be a good thing if we used our intellects to get at the issues that really matter. Perhaps we might actually "progress."

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 someone Ottawa, Canada

Just when my customers were warming up to migrating to 2K, .NET comes out. Now they're in wait and see mode again.
If the industry isn't ready to got to .NET, why should I get certified in it. Most of my customers are running NT4 and only about 35% are running 2K. I'm guessing that I have until the release of .NET SP3 before I NEED the .NET cert. For now, I'll rely on my 8 years experience and leave the certification for when the market forces me to take them. BTW, I'm not very impressed about M$'s so-called understanding of our roles and tasks. If they did understand, they wouldn't release an OS every 2 years!

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

What is the big deal. If everyone spent as much time studying as they do complaining, they would have no trouble getting the certs they need.

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 lastgen US

Way to go Andy...nice advice but we'd like to see LESS paper tigers out there if it's all the same to you ok. Please people.. learn the topics you are getting certified on! The "braindump" jockeys that memorise the answers are the ones who devalue the MCSE title and give the rest of us a bad name. If you use brain dumps use them as a guide on what to study, but STUDY.

As for the rest of you who continue to whine, everythings been said.. at least three times, and all of your complaints have been shot down quite nicely by those of us who actuahis lly enjoy learning new things and look forward to the release of new certs. As I said about 8 pages ago, go get a job fixing TV's or something if you cant take the heat. Eight years ago all of this was practicaly unheard of, but now things are speeding up, faster and faster. Technology is not going to slow down, quite the oposite. Where will you be eight years from now? Quit bitching and get on the ball.

~~lastgen~~

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 Andy Anonymous

If you guys really want to complain ...just use the braindumps, dont spend any money and still get the cert. We all obviously have the skills to get it done, but this way you can kind of stick it to Microsoft by not buying the classes or books. Is it right? No. but it may get the point across if a lot of people do it.

Thu, Dec 12, 2002 uncert good thinking

It's nice to hear that. And listen, if u do a cert for the x-box, u will win the cert for .net :D (it's all the same shame)

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Anonymous Washington, D.C.

I acknowledge the efforts of MS in developing new products, but I resent its techniques of playing games with poor candidates struggling to survive. The economy is not doing very well and unemployment rate is skyrocketing. It is irrational for MS to come with a stupid .NET upgrade technique. I have a friend who is struggling to write the MCSA exams, talk less of the MCSE. MS should note that being acknowledged as a vendor of good products does not constitute undue exploitation of those loyal to it. Most companies are still running NT 4.0 and are contemplating on migrating to W2K, and here comes the .NET showdown. I understand that the capitalist system is a dog-eat-dog world, but MS should refocus on upholding the standard of its certications rather than focusing on generating dollars for itself by exploiting poor candidates. MS, we are not responsible for your legal battles, and I think it is unfair to recoup money spent through these weird and inconsistent techniques. MS, this is a highway robbery in broad day light.

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Kelsey Winnipeg

It will be just another cert to add to the belt. Look at it this way, it keeps us all fresh and current. So everyone should quit crying....

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Remember 2K upgrade? One free is possible. 2K MCSEs may have to pay for the rest. Besides, the new director needs to push up the revenue from training and certification group. Your money is counted

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 John Doe Redmond

what do they mean "cost-effective manner" the upgrade test should be FREE >$

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Sushil India

I guess it can't hupt to ask mcphelp@microsoft.com about the free upgrade.

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Don't tell us - tell M$ Anonymous

FREE UPGRADE mcphelp@microsoft.com

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Jerry MCSE TX

Hey guys I'm gonna soudoff too.
MCPHelp@microfot.com MCPHELP@MICROSOFT.COM mcphelp@microsoft.com McPhELp@MiCrOsoFt.Com mcpHELP@microsoft.com

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 SOUND OFF 4 the free upgr Anonymous

I'm MCSE and MCSA I wanna free upgrade at mcphelp@microsoft.com

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 MCSE/MCSE Anonymous

FREE UPGRADE EXAM!!! @ MCPHelp@microsoft.com

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 SIG Anonymous

Tell M$ MCSEs demand a free upgrade Exam. Send comments to: MCPHelp@microsft.com

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 GNA FL, USA

Hell no we won't pay, Hell no we won't Pay.

FREE UPGRADE TEST FOR ALL MCSEs!!!

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 RX W.I.

I JUST HOPE THAT PRESENT MCSEs/MCSAs DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE UPGRADE .NET EXAM.

Nuff Said!!!

Over 2 U $BILL$ :->

Wed, Dec 11, 2002 Raymond UK

Lets face it...MS want their people certified...but why get paranoid, its pointless...I'm just doing my MCP/MCSA/MCSE/B-tec PCD... So I guess I'm a bit pissed about it, but then if i'm good enough what does it matter. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, you can have reams of paper qualifications, but if you cant do jack shit out in the real world, then they arent worth sod all. I'll do my 2k MCSE etc and I will study .NET myself...Doing my job is what is important, not collecting trophies. I fin the future i really need to upgrade...well then fine because I'll probably make enough money from working to make it a good move...but certainly not right now when most of us havent even clapped our eyes on .NET let alone used it in anger. I'll just carry on just as I am, microsoft isnt the only standard in the world and there's plenty of other things your employers will value. I know its a pig but try to take a look at the bigger picture....

have a nice christmas peeps

Ray.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Big red pulsing sore Anonymous

your students should like the idea of having MCSE 2000 and .NET on their resume, it shows that they are capable of both platforms.. besides, 1 or 2 tests to update is not so much.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Anonymous MD

I hold MCSE NT and MCSE2K (Early Achiever) and am training MCSE candidates. When they ask me about what happens when .net arrives and why we should invest in learning 2K, I tell them that you can take any combination of exams to become MCSE. Now we will lose a lot of potential candidates... Although I tell them that if you learn 2K you will be very close to .net but I guess they will quit and wait for .net or go to another platform.
I am really sorry about this, not about taking another exam.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I have completed the the 4 core exams in win 2k, what should i do should i continue to complete the exams or wait for the upgrade. confused

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Barnaby Mission Viejo, CA

Well as this was inevitable, I have one piece of constructive critism based on prior update exams: make the exam represent the _differences_, be they GUI or architectural. I'm sick of being tested on a "new" OS component with questions that could apply as easily to the old as the new that it's a waste of time.
Only present questions in the update exams that test an already-accomplished MCSE/A on the changes/enhancements/added features expressly concerning this new OS platform. I don't need to prove I know how to subnet or combine share and NTFS permissions _again_!

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Greggie Anonymous

I agree. I believe one free attempt, on an exam of reasonable length, would be fair. That's what I'm hoping for.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Hopefully the test is free and only ONE attempt will be allowed.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Greggie Anonymous

Two questions:
1. Will the first attempt on an upgrade exam be free of charge?
2. Will multiple attempts on the upgrade exams be allowed, or will you have take a whole series of exams upon failure of an upgrade?

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

It is nothing to go with certs. It is about the words Bill said in the past when people had questions regarding 2K & .Net. If Bill had said new certs were required with the release of new products as other vendors do, no one would have had anything to cry.

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 bebo egypt

MS , please do not miss your parteners

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Eric Atlanta

Face it guys... We're gonna have to upgrade our certifications every time Microsoft releases a new server platform. It's ashamed they can't flash us with a firmware update but they just can't do that... So you'll have to study and actually learn the new products. Is that so bad?

Tue, Dec 10, 2002 Peter DK

Well, I'm glad they finally said it out loud. At my last Personal Development speech with my boss, we discussed my future plans for education, and there really wasn't anything for me in the pipeline. I'm an MCSE on NT 4 and W2K, and I've studied everything there is to study, besides going to the university, and I don't have any time for that. So here comes MS and launches this "new" track of certifications, saving my educational pipeline for a while. Isn't it nice to have someone like MS to tell you which way to go...:-)

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 Jim Washington

This is the nature of the industry that we have chosen. If you don't like the challenge of constantly learning and demonstrating your knowledge then please don't cry when you get laid off. I hear that McDonalds doesn't require certs!

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 raza pakistan

its stupidity so that y i dont want to talk with ms hell off i dont know and truly noone know tht wht microsoft is doing and i wana talk only one point there was a huge diff between NT and 2000 but i think there is little bit diffirence between 2000 and NET so please dont do this and check your decision again Bill

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 Big red pulsing sore Anonymous

go whine someplace else.. I hate this crap from you losers who can't keep up. I personally fight hard to stay on top, and if I don't know something I always figure it out.. I guess it comes with an extensive background in MS-DOS, 95/NT/9x/2k/XP.. and I keep growing and learning with the times.. I also am very well rounded because I learned to do shell scripting in Linux as well, and my next cert after MCSE will most likely be Linux+ and then RHCE, along with CCNA.. I have learned so much in the past 5 years in the business that its pathetic to hear ppl bitch about having to learn something that should be EASY to learn.. if any of you had to learn troubleshooting in DOS and Windows 3.x, you would not be so bitter about XP/.NET because this shit is EASY you morons! Hats off to M$, at least the latest technology is making my life 100x easier.. and I also like the extra money I make because I know so much, fuck off morons, I will take the jobs you can't qualify for, just keep whining.. it helps me to show how much more I'm worth.

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 MCSE Orange County

M$ finally did it again! How else can they do it when times are bad now and
this is one of their ways to continue to keep their growth rate, profitability and of course make Wall Street HAPPY!!
All these at the expense of us by making us all do the upgrade and paying $125 for each test!!!

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 W2K Cert Everywhere

Why are people complaining about an upgrade? W2K MCSE was old umm after the year 2000 when the product was released. Come on, 2003 is almost here, 3 years since product release and people are complaining becuase the JUST got certified. Sorry, but technology ages face it, thats why all Cisco certs expire, the CISSP requires continuing education, the CCIE requires continuing education. Strange so do lawyers, accountants, police officers, engineers, and doctors. If you don't want to upgrade you skills then go work as plumber, baker, or truck driver. The certs only an advertising tool, they will never make up for a BS or BA from an accredited University. Thank God the economy is sifting the wheat from the chaff, those dot com days had me worried for a while. So I say MS expire NT 4.0, expire W2K in a year or so, and please keep offering the accelerated exams so real pros can upgrade cheaply (whole $700 with books and 2 test got a $5000 raise). My MCSE NT/2K, CCNP, CSS1, and CCIE written have paid off very nice dividends. The markets not so bad for experienced people who know what they are doing...

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 Fed up with the crying.. not telling

For those of you that are like the fed up MCT from Florida, get over it... Go do something else, if you can?? You have to pay to play. One last thought, start your own company and develope your own operating system.

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 Sparky Colorado

Good thing there are still us smart people who have a Netware Network and stay as far away from msft servers as possible. Msft will go down eventually with all their schemes. Novell and Linux will take over the Network world. Msft should just stick with making Office because that is a really nice product. And that's all the props msft is getting from me!

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 wale Nigeria

it is not a crime for the dynamism of microsoft empire but using it for expoitation on the entire interested people is the worse.writing one exam to have the knowledge of .NET and earn MCSA/MCSE + Net,is that bad? M$.
No wonder and we really thank God for challenging the monopoly in the market by the US government.

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 jokerfile germany

just as i managed to get myself certificated the rules change yet again,
at least nt4 got 4 years before replacement :-<

Mon, Dec 9, 2002 Woody Perth

Heh, Thats pretty amusing. But you know what. I dont care. Work pays for the books and my exams. I've been admining 2k for the last 2 and a bit years, I'm just about to finish my 2k MCSE. I've actually seen so called MCSE's ask questions about creating a user. I honestly think MS should make it harder to get rid of the moron MCSE's anyway.

Sun, Dec 8, 2002 Martin Denmark

Hey Bill Gates
Dont you know we have a job to keep
so try to keep it more simpel and dont change things evry 6 month

Sun, Dec 8, 2002 Randy Georgia

Half you whining asses can't even read, based on your comments. I haven't read anything that says you have to re certify. One or two test to be certified in .net server doesn't mean recertify. Your w2k certification will still be valid and you only need take the test for .net if you want it. Read and try to comprehend you whining morons. To all you college boys I have a degree and Certification. You still need experience because that conceptual bullshit you got at college doesn't mean you know anything about the real world and you are no better than the paper MCSE's

Sun, Dec 8, 2002 Dhillan South Africa

Mind my language but this is all balls!! When I started my W2k cert in August last year I was told that when .Net was released I wouldnt have to upgrade from w2k. Now the company that some people love to hate does a turn around and says no u got to re-certify that sucks. Whats the difference between .Net and W2K, probably just bells and whistles and a XP look. Microsoft please re-think your decision and who were these people you guys spoke to where they from all over the world or just in California?

Sun, Dec 8, 2002 none none

When all`s said and done it`s a lot better if you`ve got a some experience before you start getting doing MCP/MCSA/MCSE. There`s so much the manuals don`t tell you - and some of the information is just downright wrong.

The only way you`ll find that out is by working with real machines and real problems - not just by faffing around with a braindump

Sat, Dec 7, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I hope Microsoft continues with bringing out new certifications. This elmininates the paper MCSE's.

It is good that people first have to plan their career path before taking an exam. Many people just take Microsoft exams without having a career plan at all. Unbelievable but true.

Personally I don't care what they call the title: MCSE 2K + .NET or MCSE .NET

Look if you keep up to date with Microsoft's developements and read about the latest developments on the many different technology sites and have real hands-on experience, you will have no problems with passing all the exams.

If you worry about the exam fees that you have to pay each time. Ask yourself if you work for the right company. Good companies will pay at least for your exam. Are you a temp? Well see it as a short investment if the company doesn't pay for your exam.

Make a bet that most people that published a comment on this article are paper MCP's, not happy with their current employer or don't have an employer at all?

And look at this advantage: You will show discipline if you can proof in a few months that you are: MCSE NT 4.0, MCSE 2000 and MCSE .NET. No matter if you are even a paper MCSE, you distinguish yourself from 80% of all the other people because they stop taking exams when they have achieved their MCSE status.

Sat, Dec 7, 2002 hooman Anonymous

Excellent.!! i agree about this action

Sat, Dec 7, 2002 Big red pulsing sore Anonymous

I like the comments about the MCSE's who don't know how to format a floppy.. This is exactly the type of bullshit that needs to stop. There should be a pre-requisite to becoming MCP/MCSA/MCSE certified, how about 2 years experience making $8.00/hr with A+ cert.. My job recently fired some jerk-off who was supposedly good enough to replace the CIO, and he had to read a book on how to use VI in Linux.. In case none of you know anything about Linux, VI is kind of like using the EDIT command in DOS, its really pathetic that people who know nothing about Computers can get MCSE or any certifications for that matter. Oh, and I also agree that MCSE should be a high level certification, not some bullsh** set of exams that you take by getting all the answers from braindumps. I hope all you paper MCSE's rot in hell, but in the meantime why don't you get a job in another field so that us real tech's can get the jobs we are actually qualified for.

Sat, Dec 7, 2002 none none

Hi Lastgen

Most employers are dodgy fuckers anyway - just how many times have they harped on about `adding value` only to fob off customers with lame excuses if products don`t work properly.

I don`t rely on a paycheck to see me through life as I can survive by my own intuition and ability to bullshit my way through any situation. I don`t need useless corporate certifications as I`ve already got two university degrees.

Sat, Dec 7, 2002 Willow South Africa

Charming. My company is in a rush to get me certified at MY cost, and the release date on .Net has been pushed back means I'll have to take the Win2K track despite wanting to start with the newer technology. Living in a country where the exchange rate is 10:1 in favour of the dollar makes certification a costly business when you have to upgrade in six months time. Bill, you're already one of the richest guys on the planet! Microsoft is the Anti-Christ.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anti-Certs orlando

THIS IS WHY I DONT BOTHER WITH CERTS. Get a Bachelor and A.S. degree in Information Systems Technology and you'll be set for life. Certs don't mean crap, get a REAL degree something that doesn't ever expire. Get the degree, get the experience on your own, and go take these certified morons to SCHOOL!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Tamer Essam Egypt

!!!!!!!!!!!! , What a decission..?????? , What should we do..?? , I am still studying for the Windows 2000 MCSE , am I have to pass an upgrade qualification exam just before finishing my 7 MCSE exams?? , or it is expired now and I have to start my tests on the .net insted of the Win 2000 . . ??? ,
I am surprising , !!!!!!!!!!!! ,

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Jeff Brooklyn

Here's the thing: While there's undoubtly some truth that we should keep our skill set updated and $#$$ that does cost time & money, the bottom line here is that Microsoft needs to be consistant in it's Certification polices so all us folks living in the real world can make sound and pratical decisions about when/if we want to certify/recertify.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Sucker Anonymous

I guess Bill Gates (LIAR) gets more money from our certification costs that his product. I just got certified in Oct and will still be paying off my loan way into next year. Typical sales practice, promise everything and only deliver a little.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 lastgen US

Well, you should really be proud of yourself Dick. It's morons such as yourself that make it that much harder for those of us that have actually earned our titles. I hope that one day, when you've become completely reliant on that undeserved paycheck of yours that you're overtrusting employer will check your credentials. Get off our webpage asshole.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 none none

Just say you`ve passed the exams..nobody will bother checking your cv / resume anyway.

I know that because I`ve lied time and again and nobody`s found out yet!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I sincerely hope you are right Carlos, there are too many people in this club as is.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Carlos Peru

Ok, already I am tired of all this, probably does not affect much to him to Microsoft, but like head of systems of an educative organization, it will order to me to avoid that the students decide on a Microsoft certification. and will send east email to the colleagues that can. Bye Bill.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Singapore

Never change a WINNING TEAM....!!!!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Randy Georgia

Wow! This is better than a good comedy. I am not a Microsoft or Bill Gates fanatic but they are not in the welfare program for you as Lastgen said above "lazy bitches". Do you think if you get certified with no experience Bill will hire you at 100k per year or Cisco or anyone else? If you are still in school why in hell would you pay to take any cert exams? Many of us with experience take the exams for personal satisfaction and proof that we know the technology. You whiners go to brain dumps and try to find the answers to the tests and don't study anyway. Hell half of you probably don't even know the difference between a primary/active or extended partition and a logical drive. Hey Lastgen how about burger flipping I haven't heard of any advancements in that field. LOL

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Hey guys, I have a CD to fix this problem. It says red hat on it in big black magic marker. hehehe...

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Lastgen US

oooooh.. here's a thought for all of you who seem to hate Microsoft so much. Why dont you send an e-mail to mcphelp@microsoft.com and ask them to revoke your MCP status. Then you dont have to be associated with Microsoft at all. If you think the MCSE is such a crappy cert I think this would be just the solution for you. Then you can all go out and get certified in Linux, because everyone knows that it will soon replace Microsoft as the dominant server product right. Come on.. make a stand like all you whiny little bitches have been saying. Dont just stop getting certified, .. cancel the ones youhave. Show Microsoft how mad you are... truly disassociate yourselves with the money grubbing bastards. That'll show 'em!!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Lastgen US

Sad little whiners.. I maintain my opinion that the majority of you lazy bitches would be happier with a wonderfull career in television repair where the rate at which you have to learn new things is much slower. I'm sure the rest of us who are actually interested in learning new things will miss you though.. you make us look so good.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 I LOVE CERTS NEW YORK

I know I'm going to get flamed like hell for this, but shouldn't a technician desire to be certified on the products they work on? I've been in this field for 7+ years now. I've only recently gotten into certs... Since I have the hands-on experience from work, getting the cert is only a matter of spending a week reading a few books and taking the test. I don't flaunt the cert because the enhanced knowledge gained from STUDY of the product is what really matters to me. M$ probably is making a lot of dough by issuing new certs, but so is every college and university when they issue a new degree program. You don’t hear people in the medical field complaining about all the training they have to go through to excel in their careers, why do we? IT requires constant training and study… If you can’t handle that fact, IT may not be the correct career for you.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Jeff San Diego

Any changes will be welcome. Look at the salary serveys, MCSE's aren't worth anything anymore it seems, while MCSA's (a cert with fewer tests) are skyrocketing. Personally, I think it's because of the shear numbers. With Microsoft never retireing the NT MCSE's, it seems that once you make MCSE, you're an MCSE for life. MCSE is starting to be a cert you don't want on your resume anymore because you don't want to be associated with the lasy people who refuse to re-cert. Just my two cents....

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 MCT Texas

Girish has a great idea. People with certifications should get a discount - 25% for MCP, 50% for MCSE, 75% for MCT since the MCP work in the field, MCSE is relied upon to carry out the MS word of technology, and MCT have to keep up with all of the new crap that comes out each and every single month.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Curt Collins Baltimore, MD

I am consistently surprised (if that's not an oxymoron) at the frustration people display here toward the need to upgrade their skills to upgrade their certifications. All I can say is that "if you don't want to continually learn new material, then you are in the wrong line of work" I have been an MCP for over 5 years and currently hold MCSE/A, MCSD, MCDBA, and MCT titles. I have pursued and maintained these credentials to demonstrate (or at least suggest) mastery of the current subject matter to potential and existing clients, which inevitably translates into the compensation figures that training providers love to toss around. Let's look at the bigger picture: suppose Microsoft releases a new line of server products every three years, which requires, maybe three to four solid weeks of study to "come up to speed on" and between $125 (one test) to $875 (seven for a full MCSE battery), this translates into around an hour plus 5 or 6 bucks out of pocket each week of the year. Compare this investment in your career with individuals with similar compensation in other professional areas (Accounting, Medicine, Law) and see how you measure up. Bottom line, either find one lunch hour a week to bring a sandwich, lock your cubicle door, and study, or put those IT compensation numbers out of your head. I personally don't know many Fortan programmers pulling in six figures.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

You guys need to quit your whining. I decided a while back when this same fiasco was over NT4 to 2000. I decided then that if this is the way M$ was going to treat its "professionals", then I wasn't going to give them another penny of my money. I went and got my RHCE instead. I have not regreted that decision in the slightest.

Listen to reason here, if your really sick of this M$ rat-race (like many other companies are, not just professionals) quit giving these fools your money and switch.

There is life after M$, RedHat is a good alternative. It is much like the same feeling I got when I stopped taking my Novell certifications to switch to M$. People back then thought Novell would always dominate. M$ is doing the same crap Novell did in 1997. I learned my lesson in 1997 with Novell, and in 2000 with M$.

If your really professionals, then demand to be treated like professionals. Instead of moaning like a grieved widow about M$ changing the rules as they go, ask yourself this single question: "How much time/energy/money am I throwing at M$ certs, and what is my payback". If you can honestly say M$ is paying you back in spades, then it is a good investment, and you should quit griping and start taking tests. If you look at that equation, like I did, and come to the assessment that you are getting jerked around, quit griping and move on. There are alternatives out there, and the demand for those alternatives is increasing.

Send a real message to M$, don't re-up your certs, and let other M$ cert holders that they don't have to put up with this if they don't want to.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

LOL! You must have applied.....
Don't get me wrong, I understand it is difficult starting out - I was there once. It's not easy. What bothers me, is the enormous population of MCSE's who have never had a day of experience, and prove to be completely incompetent. There should be some kind of experience requirement. As it stands now, a person who holds an MCSE without experience, is a complete misrepresentation. It is supposed to be an advanced certification. If you are an MCSE, and can't perform basic tasks, or understand basic concepts, IT IS A LIE.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

This is absolutely wonderfull. After reading 9 pages of complaints, I have come to the conclusion that there will be quite a few of you going back to your drive thru jobs. Good news! We recently advertised a helpdesk position in Seattle, and received approx. 2000 resumes. Out of those 2000, roughly 50 were actually qualified FOR A HELPDESK POSITION!!!
There is nothing worse, than hiring a so called MCSE, who doesn't know what a NIC is, gets a tour of your server room, points at a Dell 6400, and says "What's that?" Needs help changing a computer name. Can't format a floppy. Very scary. Obviously, since then, steps have been taken to never hire a moron like that again, but the interview process is pretty funny! We should make a video of highlights of these interviews, when these MCSE's are trying to answer questions during the technical portion of the interview. I'd be rich.
Anyway, I hope Microsoft keeps pissing you little whiners off - go back to the deep fryer!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Brian South Dakota

It is good that Microsoft is having two shorter upgrade tests to be .NET certified. However, what is reprehensible is their ease at which they change their minds. Number one, this leaves a lot of people who got their or are near finishing their MCSE 2K certification up a creek. This also is bad for the CTECs who along with the general public were led to believe you could mix and match 2k, XP and .NET tests for the MCSE. This makes them look pretty silly too. Microsoft needs to treat it's customers with more integrity and also needs to stop treating its partners like they are just another retail customer.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Don Minneapolis

Once upon a time I was excited and enthusiastic embracing certifications from companies such as Microsoft, Novell, or Cisco. I felt as if there was credence to their purpose of training and the related certification process, namely providing qualified personnel in the world-wide workforce to support their respective products. Having been part of the training / study / testing / certification process on all the major certification tracks for well over ten years I feel more and more like a marionette tethered to the whims of big corporate money machines. Or in summary, yeah - whatever!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Jennifer Ohio

I don't have a problem with taking one or two exams to upgrade my MCSE - W2K. I was pretty upset when I had to redo seven exams to upgrade from 4.0 to W2K, but it also forced me into learning a lot about W2K. Doing one or two exams to upgrade to .NET will be another helpful learning experience. If you expect to be certified for a particular product, then yo should take exams for it... but not too many!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Randy Georgia

Oh its whining time again! You whiners are pathetic. Most employers wouldn't want you because you probably whine about everything. Of course you have to upgrade your skills or why don't you bitch to Microsoft about upgrading from MS DOS. If you don't have real experience you aren't going to get a job and keep it based on any certification test, even "CISCO". Quit whining and get a life or a job bagging groceries.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Bobarama Cleveland, USA

Win2K cert folks will still be VERY employable. For now. Rare is the CIO who jumps on the new system bandwagon right away. I for one welcome the new .NET certs and am willing to spend the time AND the money to stay current. I am happy that so many are against it and hope that they avoid the training. That creates more opportunity for me. For when the enterprise does get on the bandwagon.... I'll be ready. And certified. And employable.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous 2 Anonymous

Exam 70-219 Design active directories now are a mandatory. 280 minutes that is 4 hours and 40 minutes just less than five hours. Any person under any test of more than 3 hours become fatigued, and the 5 hours cover every point of the subject. This is a mad exam!!! Designed to fail. It does not represent not a design style at all. A note to Microsoft: in the real life the design is open book subject that will has multiple scenarios and will be revised and discussed before implemented. The exam should be at the most 3 hours, three questions and a pass mark of 50% no more.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Hulka Anonymous

Everyone whinning about this recent decision is simply looking for a free cert. Who cares the 2000 and .Net certs are going to be distinct now? Frankly, I think this will benefit us since each certification (NT/2000/.Net) will tell employers, recruters, etc... exactly what we are certified to do. The whinners are the same ones that complained about the 12/31/01 dealine of the 70-240 exam. Hike up your skirts.

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Jimmy_T UK

Ok, alright, I was fooled. I upgraded to W2K MCSE and now I needn't have. I'll wait to see if I need to take a single Exam. Whatever happened to honesty? Why didn't Microsoft just tell us the truth? I'm shocked. I will now seriously consider RHCE and stick with that. BTW I hate Linux! I'm still on a NT4 network with a few W2ks and consider myself a Microsoft man - looks like that's going to change! Hello little Penguin, how are you? Do you like my new Red Hat?

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Why are you all so upset? If you are a professional you need to keep yourself up to date. Many other professions insist on it!

Fri, Dec 6, 2002 info Italy

Are we sure meantime bussiness and firm have migrated to .net so fast as we MCP have to for Microsoft Certification ?

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Brain Dead Kansas

One more thing, with so many lay-offs in Kansas and the lack of IT jobs around here, if you're the last to leave Kansas, please turn out the lights. (Don't laugh, happened in Seattle years ago.)

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Brain Overload Kansas

1. Do you all want cheese with that whine? "Now, if you're an MCSA on Windows 2000, when we release the .NET track, you'll likely take one exam, assuming your elective carries over. " But then to assume = ass out of u & me.

2. Altho .NET sounds like a good thing, where is this going to end, pray tell??? If IT continues at the pace M$ is pushing for, the only ones who will be able to realistically keep up will be androids or aliens. Then I can just write unbelievable SF for a living, like Spielberg does.
3. Businesses need solutions that reflect the new downturned economy. This is a perfect time to get certified in something less proprietary, like Linux.
4. I received a picture today of a CD that said M$ World Domination 1.0 - Sorry, not interested. Besides, if I own my house, why should I rent my OS???
Thanks for listening.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 aloha bob out-there

Come on guys . . . are you all honestly surprised? I have my NT4 , a CNA and Cisco certs out the wazzoo . .
It's all I need, and it's all I'll ever get from M$ What we need to do is to devalue Microsoft Certs even farther.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 MCT US

Hey, Big Red Pulsator, if anyone is a CCIE, they don't need any other cert...

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Big red pulsing sore inside my ass

Any well rounded MCSE will want to get Cisco Certs eventually anyhow.. The way to make the big bucks is to be an all in one solution for a small company, or just be a consultant with MCSE, CCIE, CCDP, CNE, RHCE, etc.. I know this is my goal.. can you imagine how much money somebody with that many certs is worth? And you fools are complaining because staying on top of technology costs you a few hundred dollars a year, get real.. those certs make it so that you can have a high paying job instead of flipping god damned hamburgers.. Go cry yourselves to sleep now babies!

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 MCT Chuck Alaska

CCIE, Here I come!

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Kevin Soper Shelton, WA

I don't like the idea of Microsoft always changing their cert strategies any more than anybody else does, but at least it seems that they're starting to get it right. Like making the MCSA track a subset of the MCSE track. Look at it this way: if a person were to hold the MCSE certs from NT thru .NET (and beyond...) they would have a clear certification performance track with a proven history of staying on top of current technology. How many IT administrators out there will be able to say that? By taking an extra course or two, people will be better able to master the upgrades as they occur. One more thing, I'm an MCT, too so I welcome all that extra testing.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 MCSE NT4 & W2K UKRAINE

Microsoft don't give a damn about anything.Money from Course and Certification - is a key to Microsoft strategy.Wasting time instead learning about new in .NET.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Tim VA Beach

Technology changes... I never expected to get my MCSE and not work to keep it. As far as I'm concerned don't upgrade to .NET. It will make me worth more......

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Sore the reaming

Just say "No". Learn UNIX. Get SUN certified. The skills are more uniform across the board. You get away from all the whining from the suposedly "skilled" Microsoft "engineers" and the ones that paid for the "privilege" of being called "certified". Go out there a learn a real skill. Learn UNIX.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Big red pulsing sore Anonymous

Whaaa!!! shut up! I personally hate it when people whine, its pathetic. Micro$oft is not making a ton of money on testes, can you imagine how much they have to pay people to come up with the testes? And then they have to pay the testes centers who host the exams, who then have to pay the poor schmuck who has to watch you for 4 hours while you sweat in front of the screen pulling your hair out wondering which answer is correct.. Do you really think that in this day and age that $125.00 US is a whole lot of money? PLEASE!!! I would be surprised if M$ is breaking even with the testes for crying out loud! And yes, I am writing testes instead of test or tests.

One more thing, for all you paper MCSE's out there, I hope you all are finding it hard to find a job right about now and decide to change careers.. you are all making it harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously as Micro$oft Certified Professionals because you DON'T KNOW SHIT. I personally take offense to the fact that you spend 3 months in some boot camp and *presto* you are an MCSE.. or perhaps you visit a braindump and decide to take a test to show how good you are, well you aren't you moron, go pollute some other field and leave the technology field alone.. I feel better now ;-)

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Money Grubber Anonymous

Again Microsoft shows they are only interested in raising there bottom line. This is a decision based solely on money. If you believe for a minute that this decision is based on the theory of keeping your IT skills tuned up than I have some beach front property in Arizona I will sell you.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Quit your whining!!! WAAAAA I gots to go get cerrrrrtified again, sob sob sob. Its the outright laziness of these bottom feeders that has made the cert nearly worthless. There are simply far too many "admins" and "engineers" and i use the term loosly, that would be unemployable if ever cut loose from the companies they work for. As a contracter, my skillsets, my history, AND MY CERTS get me in the door and my numbers up. I'm glad they did it and I will be on the first site when the .NET MCSE was released as I was for the 240.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Beoweolf S.J., Ca

At first I was mad....now I'm merely Furious! Spent the last 8 -9 months clearing up the final certifications, for MCSE, with the idea that I could concentrate on Specific employment related certs...like E2K and upgrading my SQL to 2K. Now its back to the books, running in place to remain standing still. Ain't this a kick in the head.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

its a money making scheme.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 More BS My House

Once again, some more business propaganda...who cares? Well if M/S would just make a FINAL decision on what to the cert WOULD mean MORE. However, with all this not sure what to do crap...just makes more and more people want to say screw it. Bottom line is I've taken 29 exams 16 of those are MS exams from NT 4 and Win 2k, and let me just say I'm tired of testing...and certs dont mean squat, just gives you a shot at an interview. Having said all that...not sure if I'll bother getting .Net.

Peace

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Has anyone noticed the decline in IT jobs/salary? Seems like an MCSE is not worth the trouble anymore. If Microsoft keeps raising it's software prices, Linux just might take off. We should all become lawyers!

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Setting for my last k2000 mcse exam.
Unfair that I must now - after extensive
study and tech review that the effort was
wasted. Was going to set for MCDBA.
Changing my plans - Going to complete
Cisco's Expert Certificate. I'm a CCNA,
CCNP. At least I know where I stand with
the Cisco program. Very Professionally
directed. None of this on then off policy.
When we receive our .NET, wil you folks
change your mind and say " hay guys its
no good any longer - Moving on - so long!

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Of course they are out to make a profit, that's the reason we all get in our cars each morning. The point is that it's quite unlikely that increased certification profits was the driving force behind this decision by Microsoft, as some suggest. That's really just a weak foundation that people use to mount their little bitch sessions.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

If its not about the M$oney then why did they raise the test fee from $100.00 to
$125.00, guess the 75% profit margin wasn't up to M$'s benchmark.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Lastgen US

I cant believe what I'm reading, come on people. You knew very well that the career you chose was a fast paced one. The new SE exams don't come out for another 9 months or so.. about three years from the initial release of the 2k SE... thats a very reasonable ammount of time in my book.
If you choose not to take the one or two upgrade exams to show that you know .NET that's your choice. You'll still be MCSE's, there's nothing to loose here, only things to gain. .. noone is forcing you to do anything. It seems to me that the majority of you are angry because Microsoft wants you're title to actually reflect the product that you were tested on.
Come on.. do you REALLY think that Bill is worried about the 125-250 bucks he'll make off of the people who decide to take the upgrade tests. Suck it up! Other than those of you who are full time students, I cant believe that you bitch about the cost of a couple exams. Geez.. it's even a tax write-off. If you're working in this industry and cant seem to scrounge up 250 bucks for a couple exams over the course of the next 9 months, it seems to me that you need to take these certs.. maybe it'll help you get a raise.
Personally, before this info became public, I was angry that there wasn't going to be a separate cert to show proficiency with .NET.. so this makes my day. Who can complain about another title on their resume.. and another chance to prove that you know a product.

Perhaps some of you should look into a career in Television repair.. I'm sure the rate at which you have to learn new things moves much slower.

~~lastgen~~

~I never worked for a company that wouldn't re-imburse me for my exams.. and I never will.~

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Bill changed minds again? Unbelievable!!! Did Bill tell us to get certs in WIN 2K when we asked about "Whistler", ".Net? Now we are 2K certified, and Bill is telling to upgrade again from 2K to ".Net". Let us hope that the coming upgrade test will be free at least even though Bill is talking about "normal exam". We all know it costs money to take "normal exam".

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 John Anonymous

Did I miss something in the article? Why are people surprised that with a new server release there's a corresponding exam? In fact, if I'm reading it correctly, it sounds like they made the upgrade path easier.

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 MCT/MCSD working toward M AL

Come on guys!! I am sure a deCertification is at hand for existing MCSE's. I was trying to update my certs to include MCSA and MCSE, I am not sure it is worth it and will probably pull back from that effort.

From a small business owners perspective(non Training I might ad), it is crazy. I might send folks to 2 classes a year and help them with their MCP. Who can afford the time or effort to prepare for and take these exams, besides Trainers who make their living at teaching and taking test?

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Chaz Maryland

What's the big deal? We all knew that constant change and upgrading of skill sets were a career requirement. I am hoping that will weed out even more paper MCSE's

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 Chad US

When is .bill due out? hahahahaha

Thu, Dec 5, 2002 pissed off Paris

OK guys , i do agreee with the fact that we have to keep up to date with new products , i simply disagree with the time frame for releasing new product , specially considering all i had heard up to now was that .net was an upgrade to W2k , i've been doing 2k migrations for 2 years , my current project will be finnished in 3 years , by that time there will be a .net2 , where do i find the time to update my skills when i already work 90h a week ??????? , i really am pissed off about the time W2k was "up to date" 2 years is too much of a short period for a server OS , and then there are all the backoffice components ..........

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Joel Virginia Beach

MS went too far on this one. I own a consulting business, a retail store and a training center. I will not waste money on a .Net cert(s) when most small to mid size businesses are JUST NOW migrating to 2000.

I will upgrade my certs when the MAJORITY of businesses require those services.

I think MS manipulated people, and I think it is up to all the MCP's out there to retaliate by not investing more money in MS certifications.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Big red pulsing sore inside my ass

Ok, Win2k track has been out for a couple years now.. I have my final MCSE test scheduled for this month, and I am currently MCP/MCSA for 2000.. I have gradually studied and tested over the past year and it is soon to pay off! I will be taking the .NET upgrade testes next year just to keep up, but come on people, is there really such a reason to complain? Keep up with the times or fall behind, it's really up to you.. I have known for many years that being a computer tech means constantly learning new shit just to keep your job.. And, windows 2000 is not going anywhere for a long time.. as a matter of fact, my job will most likely keep all of the servers at 2000, with a couple of servers running .NET .. and the company I work for is always keeping up with the times.. we have .NET developers already working on beta servers, and creating new apps in VB .NET, but does this mean that I can't keep my job unless I get upgraded, NO.. but I will anyhow.. Well, that's my 2 cents.. the whiney bitches out there in fairy land need to wake up and smell the coffee. If you don't like the heat, get the fuck out the kitchen FOOL.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Henry Canada

Bring it on, MS! I'm ready now.
All this complaining from people on the trailing edge of the IT wave. I like the guy who threw his training money into shorts on the stock market and is living comfortably. In this or any other business, timing is everything. My hat's off to you, sir.
As for the rest of you, No one should complain if they knew that MS has buried a VMWare version of Xbox into Longhorn.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Stephen Indianapolis

Sara, you're crazy. I'm an MCP for NT4. I was working on getting MCSE for NT4, got all my cores done, then Win2k came out. Wasting all my time and money. I was hoping to take the Accerated exam, but then they voided that offer. I say screw Win2k!! I'm going straight for MCSE .NET and get MCSA requirements at the same time! I am sick and tired of getting an OS cert just for MS to say, "Sorry, it's void now.. thanks for your exam money." I have had a hard time trying to find a Junior Network Admin job even with a Cisco CCNA2.. I studied for that one hard!! I am starting to ask myself, if the certs are even worth it having MCSE .NET and CCIE? Oh, and if you have some extra money Sara, send it my way instead of wasting it.. I accept Paypal!

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Pete Australia

I have been duped by misleading disinformation. I really couldn't give a fig what M$ do with their certs but when I paid upfront $9500 for an MCSE course for W2K which I was categorically told will not be superceded by .NET then I have been lied to and I do not like being made a monkey of or having my money conned from me.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 zigzog Canada

Whatever, I'm stepping off the Microsoft Money train. I let my MCT cert lapse this year, I will let my 2000 MCSE cert lapse as well. It's true, it won't effect my skillset, I just won't let it effect my pocketbook as well. Microsoft has bilked enough of my money. Having the cert or not will not effect my pay, clients, students or the number of linux boxes I set up with openoffice.org. I recommend to my students not to bother with Microsoft certification either - I took the MCSE cert off my resume because people would see it and assume it was just a paper cert. If MS can show some value to their continuously changing certifications, I might reconsider, but not until they make up their minds.

But it doesn't really matter what they tell people - they have lost credibility with their certification track and keep changing their minds every 6 months about what they will do.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Good move. I can't believe the complaints. Novell has different certs for its products, Cisco has different certs for its products (except the CCNA/DA, which is gumby level stuff). Start doing those exams if you like, but it won't help you. Aside from which you should be doing certs that prove your skillset in what you work with. Are you all planning to quit your jobs so you can work with a technology that has neater exams? Or are the complainers just paper MCSEs who will do any cert just to look like they have a skillset, and are useless when put in front of a live network?

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Mark Australia

It's IT. It's a new technology.
Just because you are an MCSE doesn't mean you're immediately a guru in .NET, so why SHOULD you be given a cert which states that you are.
There are a ton of Win2K networks out there, if you don't want to reskill yourself in a new area, continue to work there.
The 2000 certs will continue, you're not being de-certed, it's really not an issue.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 two more points Anonymous

1/ .NET is real cool
2/ the additional permissions required for .NET is heady stuff. I have reason to think there will be some baselining wizards/roles to get you rolling but to really understand the tokens, ACLs, impersonation, used by those objects involved, especially in a development environment while talking to Yukon and distributed everywhere, well it is a ^2 jump at least.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Redmond Exams Anonymous

Employees of Redmond Exams get their freakin exams free. Thats why you feel that way.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Darek MCSE, MCSA Peru

Well, we worked and studied a lot to obtain cert and now MS change its own decision, first Bill must meet with his staff to stablish a good policy on cert and development on technology, at this moment, spend time on Linux or Solaris is a better decision, and more cheaper

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

I am an employee of Redmond Exams and an MCSA, and I think I speak for most legitimate test preparation companies. I think that the changes that Microsoft has proposed, while frustrating in some regards, in the long run will be seen as valid. They are working to safeguard and increase the value of the certifications that we hold. This is their interest. What benefit would it be to them to have their own certifications devalued. I doubt that profitting from their Certified Professionals is a motivating force in these decisions. On another note, I think it sounds great to be able to focus now on Windows 2K and then be able to upgrade to .NET with a single exam later. Then you will be MCSE in 2K and .NET!

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Anonymous Calif

I just going to wait for the next one the hell with MCSE I'll get VB .net Cert. I can't hang with the MCSE dance anymore. Can you see it now My NAME MCSE NT4 MCSE 2K MCSE .NET MCSE Who Know What. Microsoft is really making their own MCSE Cert worthless. If we can't keep up with it, how can an employer looking for someone???

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 BLAME DAN Give him hell not this forum.

Blame Dan Truax, Director of Microsoft Certification Business & Product Strategy.
Give him hell not this forum.
This forum is just to moake you feel better and vent. THings are not going to change unless you write/call/e-mail DAN THE MAN.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Bill Springfield, IL

I adamantly opposed to Microsoft vascillating so often that I am beginning to get dizzy. I would like to have some decisiveness and vision present within MIcrosoft. I am tired of updating every year just because Microsoft wants to collect additional revenue.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Ian England

People spend £40 per book, £109 per exam and I dont know anywhere that employs you or rewards you for passing an exam !!!! At the end of the day does it really matter whether you have a certificate or credit card to prove that you can do the job.....

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Richie X St. Lucia, W.I.

I'm MCP, MCSA, MCSE, on Win2K. All I have to say is bring on the test, but we who have qualified on the Windows 2000 track should have to pay for the exam if its just an "UPGRADE." If M$ arguement is really about keeping skill up to track a benefit of being an MCSA or MCSE should be FREE upgrade test within 2 years of a new product line. Nuff said I'm looking forward to getting certified with Cisco and Linux anyway.

"BRING ON THE TEST I TELL YA!!"

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Chad Evans US

Babu's resturant my behind. Uncle Bill has his hand in my pocket again. I haven't even been an MCSE/MCSA for one year and less than one year ago M$ announced that no matter which exams we took, we would be an MCSE "on Windows 2000" This is a crock of crap. Who is going to pay for my training? Who is going to pay for my certs again? I am so tired of investing in technology that they can't even get to work right before they want to change it and make my certs less valuable. Why should people who are new to IT, and pass the exams for .NET be more valuable in the market than those that have been an MCSE 3 times over again? And those that have are def tired of studying and re-testing with these stupid written exams. Wanna make these certs worth something, follow the Cisco guidelines, cause that is what M$ is going to do in the end anyway, "borrow" from someone else, in the meantime, release an OS every year and make billions of dollars in exams alone. Those that aren't crying are getting free training and their exams paid for, I cannot afford it anymore, especially in the current economy. Thanks Uncle Bill.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Houdini Pennsylvania

You just have to love Microsoft... The thing that I find interesting is how they push all this new software down our throats and we buy into it. Industry doens't work the way Microsoft wants it to work. I still deal with clients that run Windows NT 4.0 and have no plans to upgrade in the near future. Everyone, including Microsoft, wants to broast about .Net and XP, heck people are only starting to come around to Win 2K about now. In my opinion, any one or any company that jumps on Microsoft's bandwagon about new software really has to look at how changing their infrastructure is necessary. The saying goes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it." If the software works and you have competitent people using and work with it, why change? I guess it comes down to the all mighty dollar. We have it, Microsoft wants it, and we're foolish enough to give it up with looking at how this "snake oil" is really a benefit.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 someone germany

In my opinion, Microsofts strategy for W2K and .net certification is wrong!
A few weeks ago, Microsoft said, that all MCP and MCSx on W2K will catch their certification! And now??
But: "Why i should be interested on the things i yesterday said"
By the way, if the update-exams are for free, nobody can say, Microsoft only will print money!!!

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Why, Who, When Anonymous

Milk that cash cow.
Flavor of the month.
I stoped taking MS tests a long time ago.
I am still employed.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Garry Columbia SC

I'd be interested in seeing the study done by Truax. The changes everybody is complaining about are a result of job task analysis. Admins perform a particular type of job so the study is based on those jobs. That results in a list of several hundred tasks. Microsoft prioritized the list. From there, it developed a job role, with a list of tasks performed in that role. From that, the
group scoped out the different credentials and the job skills
needed for those titles. What were they? Let's see em! I'd like to use that info to coach prospective students. Anybody see that stuff? If so email me. -Garry

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Mauro Alfaro Latin America

Please!!!! does anyone know Mr. Dan Truax email? I would love to send him my coments (not a love letter I must say), and probably someone else too, I think that could really help doing his job and knowing what MS certified people think.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Mauro Alfaro Latin America

As I wrote before, does ANYONE in MICROSFT PLAN ANYTHING??? MOC courses say PLAN, PLAN, PLAN, do as I say and don´t as I do! Imagine after an enormous job some IDIOT realize OH if I pass a .NET exam My Credential should say .NET so lets change it all over again. Isn´t it SMARTER to say for instance you are MCSE in W2K, and MCSE in W2K + NET, wouldn´t been that easy add "+ .NET" and keep everything as they´ve said they will. Or is it the same shit againg like NT4 and when every MCP complains about this they will come up with some magic and for instance say ok W2K and .NET exams are the same, and if you pass .NET then you are MCSE + .NET

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Brian D Richards Washington, DC

Wow, I'm really surprised at all the negative feedback!! As an MCSE/SA/DBA, and one of those who passed 70-240, I for one am looking forward to an upgrade exam (or exams) that is not a four-hour monster! No one is forcing you to upgrade, but the option will now exist for those who want to. Now there will be a clear-cut upgrade path, rather than "mix-and-match" certs. I like IT!!

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 me Anonymous

Hey - this is cool. I could care less about MS and their changes - I'll just download another REAL TEST as soon as it comes available on the 'net and go take the sucker. No studying. No sweat. Who cares about MS certs? It's all a game anyways. Get the certs and move on to the next job. If you can do the job then great. If not - go into nursing ... I hear they're giving away signing bonuses.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 2kMCSE/A/DBA the back yard

It seems to me the people came up with this are certifiably insane!
Why not have a .net addition to the mcse like "MCSE +.Net"? for current 2k mcse's instead of an entirely new track. From what i have seen of .Net there are only a few "key" differences from each discipline (except development)...after all the framework will currently run on 2kserv... why should one have to go through all the studying, testing and $$$? A simple "this is what is new and this is how you use it/implement it" book/test should suffice. Bill are you listening? Nope. didn't think so...do you ever listen to anyone outside of marketing or legal?

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Greg Neilson Anonymous

Hard to see anything good here. This appears to be more about saving costs on course/exam development for .NET server and/or driving demand for both WinK and .NET certification than wanting to have great certifications programs. After the about turn on decertifying NT 4.0 MCSEs last year and now this, I fear for what lies ahead. What else are they going to change their minds on? Consistency here by MS is the only way to keep the support of certified folks.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

About the DOT.BOMB era I booked my CCIE exam, some Win2K exams, and some Novell upgrades just keep my MCNE. When the IT industry went into recession, I had a long hard look at what I was doing and why. I have certifications going right back to the start of this tread mill, and paper tossed into a drawer. I saw this as a 12 year rat race. So I cancelled all the tests, took the money and invested it in the stock market. With shorting the market and using options plays, I turned a drain on the funds into an income stream. I am in the final stages of retreating from the IT field and loving it. I don't see it recovering for at least 24 months and never reaching the hights of the late 90's. So it may be new perspective that may be in order.

Good luck to those who still want to play in this space.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 70-228 UK

If anything is likely to encourage Paper MCSEs it's the prospect of shelling out more cash for something that we were all told we wouldn't have to...

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 pissed off Paris

Damn MS !!!! , i got caugth by the NT4 supposed end of life got forced to upgrade my MCSE to 2k , the came up SQL 2k , so like a fool upgraded my MCDBA to 2k , what do i learn in the last weeks is that there is a new CERT for .net PLUS a new version of SQL , that means a new cert for MCDBA , could somebody tell thoses guys that some of us have a professional life outside the class room (like actually building business solutions using their products) , damn those two certs where 9 months of self training , considering the time it took for the next product release between NT4 and 2k and SQL 7 to SQL 2000 i feel like there is a slight double standards between last milenium and new millenium certs , what about releasing backoffice components in time instead of pissing off the engineers that SELLS your products ,i was already pissed with having to do an extra exam for MCSA since the material was already covered with my electives (i've done all the original design exams) and now i'll have to do 2 more for .net , god knows how many for SQL 2002 i feel like i should be getting FREE training / exams for this . last thing : if i listen to the article that informed me of this change , certified people where consulted about this , REALLY ?????? I DONT RECALL

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Sara Bahrain

Excellent!!! I am honestly surprized. If you claim you are NOT an paper MCSE or MCSA , then what should you worry about? Microsoft is doing this to oblige us to keep our technical experties on the edge. I would rather be thankful to Microsoft. If you can't upgrade to .NET I suggest apply job at Babu's restaurant next door.

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 70-228 UK

A rip-off merchant technique. Tell everyone they don't need to worry about doing .Net exams yet because their MCSE with 2000 exams will qualify for .Net, so everyone keeps doing the 2000 exams. Then do a about face so everyone who did the 2000 exams who would have waited for the .Net exams are royally screwed.

Thanks M$. Can't think of a better reason to start studying Linux (and I don't even like Linux much...).

Wed, Dec 4, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

Guess what I just realized that the new MCSE .NET track will most likely need more than 7 exams, given ppl also get MCSA on the way, cos pro, serv, network, ad, and network management plus 1 design make up the core - looking at the win2k track. Then the electives maybe 2. That makes the whole cert at least 8 exams. So the upgrade exam or not actually covers 5 subtests.

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

People will complain about anything. Just because a new skillset exists doesn't make your old one worthless. It also doesn't mean the new skills shouldn't be recognised. If you've got an MCSE and can show some hands on experience, your exployer will not care what flavour it is.
The MCSE track needed a workover anyway. Counting the 70-218 as an MCSE elective was laughable debasement of the cert.

It also sounds like it will take another year for the full cert to be released, and there's no mandatory upgrade this time. You don't HAVE to upgrade, chill out people.

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Girish Vancouver

This is a very stupid desicion on microsoft's part. First they got to realize that everyone out there does not have MONEY unlike Mr Bill Gates to be spending on books and then payin 125US each time someone writes the exam. I am a student nearly making around 1000 bucks (CD) a month and need to buy books and pay for exams and Microsoft has got to learn to cut some slack for ppl who are atleast already certified by letting them pay maybe 50 dollars which is still very reasonable to write an exam considering MS "WISE" (NOT) decision of changing there tracks every damn time they come up with a new product. I don't think there should be any more than one exam for a person like me and others to transfer there whole MCSA WIN2K track to be converted to .NET track. Next thing you know they come up with .NET 2004 and then they'll change there track again. MS has got to LEARN that by changing there requirements every time they bring out something new they are not only confusing the hell out of ppl who write the tests but also companies who invest there big bucks in implementing there networks. First it was all about WIN2K and promises that they won't be chaning anything and even if they did .NET and WIN2K could be mixed match and now this??? I rather get my certs for CISCO who has a very very good reputation and change there cert track once in like 2 yrs. That doesn't hurt me to go out pay 125US in two yrs to keep up. My only suggestion to MS if one of the officials are reading this msg that if you want to stop pissin off company executives and network managers/ppl writing exams do something about this whole ordeal of changing stuff around every 6 months cuz ppl sure do not have money to keep on writing exams and implementing new networks & also once again and finally there shouldn't be more than ONE EXAM to convert whole WIN2K cert to .NET and one shouldn't have to pay FULL fees to do that.

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

This is ridiculous. First announcing retirement of NT4 in 2001 then restating its validity. Now with Win2K in the driving seat, MS comes in and say .NET upgrade. What would be next - the retirement of 2K track? Talking about getting MCSE with MCSA together, it's like the MCAD/MCSD for .NET - which is good in its own way. Also about the migration from NT4 to 2K, I bet there will be an exam something called "Migrating from Win2K to .NET" in the .NET track and with the NT4 to 2K migration exam retired. Since I'm at it, MCDBA cert is also weird. MS allows both SQL Server 7 and 2K in the exam list but the title just states MCDBA on SQL Server 2K. So what happens if a guy takes those 2 exams on SQL Server 7 and becomes MCDBA? Wouldn't they be called MCDBA on SQL Server 7 instead of on SQL Server 2K?

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Another Fed up MCSE Sydney

Ahhhhhhh !! I'm still paying for the last round of exams....I've only recently upgraded to MCSE2000 (June 02) and I did this expecting not to have to upgrade to .net. Had I known I would have waited... I've been had.. Thanks Bill !!

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Anonymous Anonymous

woo woo woo im a monkey im a monkey

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Another Fed up MCT, MCSE/ MD

First, MS decided to get rid of the MCSE on NT4, then they realized that no stupid enterprise would migrate right away to 2K, and how valueable the NT4 was at that moment so they decided to have MCSE on NT4 and MCSE on W2K. Microsoft made very clear that the life of the MCSE on W2K cert. would be at least the same of the NT4. Now they are changing again?!?!? Why don't they find another way to steal money but not on certifications!?! Get back to this world!! The way MS handles business, they will go down just as quick as they grew. Write that down! I'm starting to believe what everyone says about MS.

Tue, Dec 3, 2002 Fed up MCT, MCSE/A FL

This is just great. We were told to get the W2K certs because MS would not require us to take more classes and exams for .NET but now they are changing their minds? This is wrong.

It would be different if MS had told us back in the early W2K days that this was going to be the case. I guess now I may just look at someone elses certs and quit shelling out money to a company that changes the path on us every 6 months.

I am tired of testing to keep up to do what it takes for us to stay current and employable.

Thanks for wasting my time and money MS.

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