News

UPDATE: Microsoft Rescinds Retirement of NT 4.0 MCSE Track

In a significant announcement made late Wednesday, Microsoft is no longer retiring the certifications of those who obtained their MCSE title under the NT 4.0 track.

Call it listening to customers and partners. In a significant announcement made late Wednesday, Microsoft is no longer retiring the certifications of those who obtained their MCSE title under the Windows NT 4.0 track. At the same time the company publicly announced for the first time just how many people currently hold the MCSE credential under Windows 2000.

In a conference call with Robert Stewart, General Manager of the Microsoft Training and Certification Group, and Anne Marie McSweeney, Microsoft's Director of the Certification and Skills Assessment Group, MCPmag.com learned that the company has reversed itself from a stern policy decision set two years ago to decertify those who hold the NT 4.0 MCSE title by the end of this year.

Microsoft has rewritten how it will look at its certification titles. Historically, Microsoft has periodically retired credentials earned on older versions of its products.

Starting immediately, no longer will Microsoft-certified IT professionals be faced with a decertification process; instead, Microsoft says that it will create version designations of its titles. An MCSE holding the title under the NT 4.0 track will be designated as "MCSE on Windows NT 4.0." MCSEs in Windows 2000 will now be formally referred to as "MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000."

McSweeney said the updated designations will appear on MCP transcripts probably beginning in April 2002.

The new policy affects titles in the program moving forward. Specifically, it affects those who hold the NT 4.0 and Windows 2000 versions of the MCSE, as well as the MCP+Internet, MCSE+Internet, MCP+Site Building, MCSD, and MCT. However, McSweeney emphasized that the company won't offer new credentials for MCSE+I, MCP+I, or MCP+Site Building under Windows 2000 or Windows .NET Server.

Under the revisions, those candidates who have passed all core exams for the MCSE on Windows NT 4.0 can continue to earn an MCSE credential on Windows NT 4.0 using exams that are currently being offered. Also, those MCPs who have achieved their titles on NT 4.0 exams will retain their certifications too. Microsoft will not bring back exams that have been retired.

Unaffected by the announcement are MCSDs in the Windows Operating System and Services Architecture track (exams 70-150 and 70-151) and the Windows Architecture track (exams 70-160 and 70-161) and MCSEs certified in Windows NT 3.51. Those who have not upgraded to the current tracks of their respective certifications will remain decertified.

Why the change of heart? Stewart says that since the company made the original decision years ago, the IT climate has become more complex. "Back then, we tried to hold to a simple, clear message," said Stewart. "But as the industry has moved to a complex and heterogeneous approach to technology, we figured that keeping [the certification program] simple wasn't the best solution. We wanted to do the right thing."

One factor in the decision, he said, was that Microsoft realized the industry could absorb that complexity. Also, Microsoft has realized that it can't predict the appropriate timing for such retirements. The new policy eliminates the need for those predictions. Plus, it allows companies to be able to identify individuals certified on Windows NT 4.0 while the product is still part of their IT environments.

"[Microsoft] had what might be called an identity crisis," added McSweeney. The company said evidence had built up proving NT 4.0 expertise was still needed. Customers and partners only reinforced that conclusion. Microsoft finally decided to reexamine its decertification policy. "We shouldn't be the ones calling the shots; we should let the market decide that."

The policy change will not affect the retirement of the 70-240 Win2K Accelerated Exam, which Stewart maintains will still happen Dec. 31, 2001. (The free voucher for this exam must be ordered by Nov. 1, 2001; see "Free Voucher Offer Ends Nov. 1" in News.)

The news brings a reprieve to those MCTs who have been struggling to achieve certification on Windows 2000. While Microsoft Certified Trainers are still expected to obtain the newer credential or another premium title such as MCSD or MCDBA, the deadline has been pushed back to May 1, 2002 from its original date of December 31, 2001.

In a side note, McSweeney revealed that about 47,000 people worldwide have obtained the MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000.

Current feedback as posted in an earlier version of this story from certified professionals appears to be running about 75 to 85 percent favorable towards the decision.

"Microsoft, leave the version sorting to me and my employer. You provide the OS and the market will take care of the rest," said MCP Steve from Dayton, Ohio, in a message posted to MCPmag.com.

"Great news. We run an NT 4.0 network and have no plans to upgrade for at least the next two years," said Robert King from Scotland. "Thank you, Microsoft. Common sense prevails."

Of those who expressed dismay about the decision, about a third hold the MCSE on Windows 2000.

"Retirement of the NT 4.0 paper MCSEs was the only thing that was going to make the effort I put into my 2000 MCSE worth it," said Chris from Texas. "Now I stand here with letters on my resume that mean even less than they did yesterday. I assure you that when I'm hiring people, I will overlook NT 4.0 MCSEs in favor of Windows 2000 MCSEs because it shows effort, desire, and the ability to learn quickly."

To read the official press release from Microsoft, go to http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2001/oct01/10-11MCPUpdatesPR.asp.

About the Author

Michael Domingo is Editor in Chief of Virtualization Review. He's been an IT writer and editor for so long that he remember typing out news items in WordStar.

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Reader Comments:

Thu, Dec 27, 2001 mousse-man Switzerland

Spineless wimps at Microsoft. People KNEW that their 4.0 cert was going to expire, and for my part, I didn't even bother about getting NT certified in early 2001, but I rather choose the W2k track. MS was even so kind and gave the 70-240 voucher out for one free attempt. Don't go whining to Billy, you bliss ninnies! Better start working, like me, 11 hours at work, 3 or 4 hours for the 2k cert, and do the exams. You can do them without brain dumps, even if sometimes, the right answers are different from the 'MS way'. I, unbelievable, had a 890 points result, and one 883, but I also had a few fails, and three exams I made exactly on the 'Pass' score (210, 215 and 224). If I were MS, I'd simply let the NT4 MCSE count as 070-244 exam after 12/31/01 and force them to do the rest. This way, the MCSE would be recognized somehow, yet people would have an incentive to upgrade their MCSE quickly. However, to weed out paper MCSEs, I'd simply have the seven exams plus one lab exam.

And, give the folks taking a design exam to print out the scenario so they don't endlessly have to click back and forth!

Mon, Nov 26, 2001 Barry Sarnia

When MS announced the retirement so soon, I said 'That's it for you, then', and ignored the MS world. I thought if enough people were of like mind, MS would cave. And they did. Too bad the 47,000 sheep had to delay the process.

Thu, Nov 22, 2001 saah Pakistan

It is good to hear about NT 4.0 track validity but Mircosoft has only given us half choice by not extending the date of Accelerated Exam beyond Dec 31, 2001. Come on Microsoft give it a second thought! extend the voucher date for atleast one year.

Tue, Nov 20, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Windows 2000 initially had too much security problems. This may be why. W2k server had to be patched every single month for different issues. Maybe this is why Microsoft is chickening out. And no wonder why many companies keep Windows NT 4.0 for now. Windows 2000 was not a finished product to begin with.

Tue, Nov 20, 2001 James Anonymous

I am MCSE 2000 certified. After all the hard work, I am still not a distinguished individual. Employers simply don't care. Get CCNA or CNE instead of getting MCSE 2000 if you already have MCSE 4.0 already. It is not worth it yet. Many companies don't recognize it yet.

Wed, Nov 14, 2001 Blake Misura Gainesville Fla

Thanks Microsoft. I have trained and studied hard to get my microsoft MCSE+intranet. and I'm currently taking my 2000 cert, but I really like being duel certified and I think, the industry can sort out the paper MCSE's from the real ones. From a manager stand point it makes a lot more sence to do it this way!a good decision!

Wed, Nov 7, 2001 Yasser Dbouk UAE

I do Really appreciate Microsoft's descision not to retire the NT4.0 certification! Thank you very Much

Tue, Nov 6, 2001 David UK

Common sense prevails. I take my hat off to those that have already qualified for their MCSE 2K, although it is disappointing to see a few comments of "I won't hire those with NT4 certification" on this list. If you run a w2k environment then I would agree that you'd probably want someone with the cert, but remember if they have Nt4 then they have the ability to learn.

Thu, Nov 1, 2001 Andy Guthrie UK

There are still LARGE numbers of IT systems deployed, which are based on NT 4 and reliant engineers with relevant qualifications. Certification in 2000 does in no way guarantee that you can effectively deploy and support a solution based on NT 4. The latest is not always the greatest.

Thu, Nov 1, 2001 larry lemay dallas, TX

Well, I give credit to MS for seeing the writing on the wall. For ALL of us who worked so hard to get our 4.x MCSE it would have been a slap in the face to have it decommissioned. I applaud their decision.

Wed, Oct 31, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Good for nothing, because even after holding such certification we still don't have the real job. An MCSE working as an PickPack? Why certify? Better invest or save money insted of wasting on certification. Even microsoft don't have entry level jobs?

Wed, Oct 31, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Thanks Microsoft.....you really do have a heart!!!!

Tue, Oct 30, 2001 Byron Miami Beach, FL

Oh, thank God! With everything that's happened this year, it's thrown me into a tailspin. I still will take my upgrade exam before January, but it gives me time for my retiring electives.

Tue, Oct 30, 2001 Sam Chan MCSE2000 Hong Kong

SHIT....it's only i could say !!

Tue, Oct 30, 2001 Ravish Adelaide

So much for me getting certified on the NT4.0 track at the age of 14! (whee!!) I simply can't be bothered to take the accelerated win2k track :(

Mon, Oct 29, 2001 Steven Armstrong Australia

A sensible decision from Microsoft. Hopefully Microsoft certification will be seen as the premier qualification to attain. I am sick of working with people in IT support who have university degrees or college diplomas that are so outdated that they cannot support the latest technology and are virtually useless supporting NT and 2000 Server sites but are employed on their virtually useless formal educational qualifications.

Mon, Oct 29, 2001 Patrick Malone MCP Association

Wake up Microsoft,
Wake up Bill, and smell the smoke.
MCSA should simply be the Core 4....
You are already making people wait until...

Sun, Oct 28, 2001 MCSE/CCNP Silicon Valley

Wasted $600? You wouldnt be reading this website if you thought it wasn't worth $600. Obviously it has an impact on your career path. If you've got the skills take the damn exams. Any employer would pay $600 just to put the logo on their business card. Some pay 10-20 times that. Think about it.

Sun, Oct 28, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Certifications are a dead issue. Good employers will ignore that nonsense anyway and look for someone with real experience. If they don't, I wouldn't want to work for them. Good luck to all of you spending your $600 or so in testing fees. You're just wasting your money.

Sun, Oct 28, 2001 anthony wash.dc

thank you M$ ! To all other NT 4.0 haters we need more support than your ignorant comments! I worked hard and spent alot of money on this certification! To have it all retired would be just foolish! Lets not turn the certification game into the discrimination GAME! I have a dream that one day PAPER MCSE's could get along and work with MCSE's. And we can all go hand into this new and dangerous mellinium. With all the terror and warfare (sept. 11 aka 911) going on lets not have a war going on in the M$ world ! Before we eliminate ourselves ! Now on that note i will see all NT 4.0 MCSE's & MCP's in 2K! Lets get this knowledge and make this money !!!! As for the paper mcse title regardless theres a saying and it is "By the sweet of your brow you shall eat " ! So all you genius geeks cut the people trying to learn some slack !!! You Cry Babies !!!!!!!!!!!

Sun, Oct 28, 2001 jcredeur LA

It was the right decision to not retire the MCSE on 4.0. I have the MCSE certification on 4.0 myself. I studied hard, and it took a lot of work on my part to get certified. Hiring a person for a job has no correlation to any certifications, period. So all you idiots out there that are crying about paper-MCSE's obviously are not as bright as I would think. I did not invent O/S, and truthfully any monkey can be trained on clicking a keyboard. There are things like work ethics, great communications, etc. that lead to good jobs. Lets quit complaining about nothing. Thank you Bill Gates and Microsoft for creating the opportunities in the industry.

Sun, Oct 28, 2001 Adam Farrugia Brisbane, Australia

A great decision that makes a lot of sense. A lot of us put a lot of time and effort into gaining NT4 MCSE certification and it is good to see that effort not being wasted. I think that also achieving an MCSE in Win2k and XP will show to prosective employers that you are willing to keep up-to-date so I think it is good that it will be possible to hold both MCSE's at the same time.
Cheers!

Fri, Oct 26, 2001 Gilles Tremblay Montreal

Well, everything depends on what the market says. There is a lot of companies out there that is still running Windows NT 4.0 and don't plan to move to W2K or XP for a while. The same companies also dont plan to send there employees to any course related to W2K in a short period. I think that this is the point why Microsoft went back to there decision to reconsider to keep the NT 4.0 MCSE's alive. It is also a great move from Microsoft to recognize the need of the industry. But we all keep in mind that this is not forever, the show must go on as we all say and someday they wont have the choice to retire the NT 4.0 MSCE's... And the better way to be prepared is to focus NOW for future track like W2K and XP certifications !!!

Fri, Oct 26, 2001 Kim Kenya

It was a fair decision.Those who feel that the MCSE in Win2K will be held less valuable should know that we (MCSE NT 4.0) will all have to be Certified in Win2K too whatever it takes,whether we take the 70-240 or all the 7 papers.The market trend indicates that we will have to.

Fri, Oct 26, 2001 Don S New York

I'm Happy Microsoft thought this out in favor of the HARD WORKINGmcse's that can manage a 4.0 net inside and out..NOT like some people from LOUISVILL that are worried about some "paper MCSE" that can't keep a job .. That's why I make what I make because my company want's to keep ME what could LOUISVILL BE WORRIED ABOUT???

Fri, Oct 26, 2001 Michael Gordon Logan, UT

Not one common 'tater mentioned the obvious -- an employer with Windows NT servers should look for Windows NT MCSE; who cares if you have Win 2K MCSE? Conversely, if the employer has Win 2K servers, he/she should look primarily for Win 2K MCSE. Many companies have both, so those of you with BOTH certs are that much better off. It is certainly true that ANY cert signifies an ability and willingness to learn, but employers and employees will benefit from more accurately targeted certifications.

Thu, Oct 25, 2001 MrMint Anonymous

I'm glad Microsoft saw fit not to retire the Windows NT MCSE Track. I've been studying hard, passing five of the six exams needed to become MCSE in NT. My next, and last exam is next week. Then, it is in to Win2k. My work is not wasted.

Thu, Oct 25, 2001 Zach Phoenix

From a company stand point it makes sense. If you run NT4.0 you want someone with certification in NT4.0 not 2000. To have MSCE in all gives you more power to bridge OS's also. It also tell HR personel you can handle more than 4.0...

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 larry pennsylvania

I think Microsoft's decision makes a lot of sense. As long as NT 4.0 is supported by Microsoft, the certifications earned for that product should not cancel out. As for NT 3.51 The same is true but I really don't think there are as many companys holding out as is the case with NT 4.0. I think this really speaks a lot for the work that Microsoft put in the NT 4.0 too. If it wasn't any good there simply wouldn't be so many people still working with it. Common sense does win out once in a while...

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 Anonymous Northern Virigina

The paper doesn't make the MCSE, the knowledge does.

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 Kevin Easterday Indianapolis

Why don't we all shut up about paper MCSE's? An exam based "proof of knowledge" will always be flawed that way. I can assure you, because I passed all of my NT 4.0 exams within one week, that most of my knowledge of NT 4.0 came from experience and book knowledge. But how can you take an exam with questions that don't make a hill-of-beans difference in how well you can administrate a NOS. Solution: Go to exams that prove knowledge by hands-on field scenarios. By the way, thanks Microsoft for recognizing your professionals are still valid.

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I guess we can say so much to losing the paper MCSE's. I thought the whole purpose of changing the tests for the 2000 course was to get rid of the paper MCSE’s. Well I guess the only thing to do now is go Cisco.

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

When I was going to MCSE school, I got the opportunity to chat with many current MCSEs and without exception, they all said that their knowledge level was at it's highest right after taking all of their tests. Sure it wasn't working knowledge but I know a lot of people in our IT department (for which I am a member) that have TONS of working knowledge but still have to go to our "paper" MCSEs when they are stumped and don't have time to research an answer. How many of you aging MCSEs remember all the details to the OSI model?

Wed, Oct 24, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

All I can say is the people who are still complaining about the "paper" MCSEs with NT 4.0 should shut up because now ANYBODY sporting a Win2k MCSE is a "paper"' MCSE!

Tue, Oct 23, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I think this was the righ decision. After all the work one puts into getting a certification, they shouldn't have to worry about it expiring at the end of a brief time period.

Tue, Oct 23, 2001 Bijoy.K.V India

Thanks to Microsoft for this great decision.
Hope it will be appreciated by all MCSE's
throught the world.

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Saib Romero Silver Spring,MD

Excellent move on Microsoft ! I worked very hard for my MCSE 4.0 and I am currently working on my MCSE2000 but I was under a lot of pressure to meet the deadline, with this new announcement a lot of us can start working on different projects and get some time to "really understand" the 2000 track instead of trying to cram everything down in a few weeks, this will bring better and more prepared MCSE's to the work force, good luck to all the current MCSE 4.0 techies out there !!

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Ben A. Brooklyn N.Y

I am glad microsoft decided not to take these certs away. I put alot of time and effort in obtaining my mcse. So thanks a billion for your decision.

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 MCSE NT 4.0 Anonymous

I think those that put down the title of MCSE NT 4.0 are probably paper MCSE's on W2K. There are too many cert mills out there. The tests just need to be harder, like fill in the blank. One crybaby couldn't even spell and had bad grammar. Fill in the answer would eliminate non-educated types like that person. I think Microsoft did the right thing. Hiring departments just need someone who knows IT in and out when deciding on who to hire.

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Grant UK

O.k I am an MCSE with 7 mcps including Exchange 5.5 (which I know I can use as an elective for win2k track) and now MS are hinting that I can use TCP/IP and IIS4 as electives also....I would like clarification since their cert & training site is awfull !! anybody know the facts or are MS just tieing themselves up in knots again ?

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 David Passaic, NJ

Makes perfect sense the way MS has now decided to go about certification. MSCE certifications that designate your qualifications and field of expertise.

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 MCSE4 Columbus, Oh

Good. Now I'll update to 2000. (I wasn't going to do it only to turn around to have XP rammed up my backside six months later).

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

can i do MSCE in NT 4.0 am a fresher

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

can i do MSCE in NT 4.0 am a fresher???

Mon, Oct 22, 2001 Ben Alao Anonymous

To us in Africa, it's good news. Win NT 4.0 is still very relevant here and will continue to be for long. Imagine an MCSE holder, even relevant in his job but feels cast-off in recognition. Microsoft, thanks for listening.

Sun, Oct 21, 2001 Wade Westminster. MD

While I currently hold the title of MCP+I, and MCSE in NT 4.0 I still have to study very hard in trying to earn my 2000 MCSE. Many new 2000 MCSE's are upset saying they feel they've been cheated by this deadline extension. Had I earned my 2000 cert already I'd be proud, not bitter at those who have yet to test. Regradless of the reason they've gotten their certs they have earned the right to use the title while others who have been studying hard have yet to even start getting through the process. The letters for them are already there, and only help a resume more. I don't feel bad about being allowed the extra time to study, but they shouldn't feel bad because they took advantage of having the extra incentive and having capitalized upon it at the right time. I don't feel the pressure as I once did, and feel I can really take more time now to study the material before I test rather than learn from books, texts and dumpsights as a learning base for passing. Those with the title are already capitalizing on it's value, how is that a bad thing. This means by the rest of us waiting to get certified have a lower market value. Why anyone would be upset about that is a mystery. I have been using 2000 server and Pro daily now for 9 months and feel there is a lot more time needed of "hands on" time before I can test and truly earn the right to be a 2000 tech. These guys are earning already while they continue to earn and move onto the next platform? Having worked on NT4 for 4 years before the tests I still had trouble passing at that time and studied hard. I know more about 4.0 now because of the experience and it helped launch my 2000 learning process in the right direction, but still... be real. Learning the operating system already and earning the MCSE 2000 for me would have required either extreme brilliance or lot's of braindumps, I don't beleive in either for most people and feel that given enough time and money anyone can pass. Eitherw ay you'd have to learn something about the system along the way. I think Microsoft made a good choice, otherwise we would have been seeing a lot more people getting just another paper version of the MCSE in 2000 certificates because of looming deadlines, and not earning them because of knowledge attained and time put in on the OS. Every MCSE on the market should feel good about their position regardless of training methods. Let the guys who have trained in 2000 hold the title for now, I can wait my turn until I'm really ready.

Sun, Oct 21, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

good decision , because there's company's , still using the NT product , so why should we Rescinds the NT certification's.

Sun, Oct 21, 2001 MOHAMMED AKBER KHAN PAKISTAN

Hii
i m MCSE certified on NT 4.0. i woud like to do give 70-240 but i had question that if i gave 70-240 & failed. is my MCSE title will be retired or not
plz reply me ????

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 George C. New Jersey

I am thrilled with this whith their decision. MCSEs on WINNT4.0 are needed. Therefore the market and MCSEs have won. I too because I can hold two certifications. The NT4 and WIN 2000 MCSE credentials

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

thank you. thank you. thank you.

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Wasssaaa UK

I don’t believe that the comments from the paramedic person are justified, the IT sector is going through a downturn at present and people are feeling nervous about job security. I think if the medical profession was in the same situation, then doctors would become just as critical of less experienced and qualified colleagues. It’s also probably more difficult to fire a doctor anyway! Which makes them feel more secure. I don’t think it’s the “paper mcse’s” that are the problem, it’s the people that get qualified and think they’ve made it and then rest on their laurels without continually updating themselves. Most of the undeserved mcses should be weeded out albeit over a longer period of time now. This won’t be as strait forward or as complete as one might think though these guys will fight tooth and nail to hang on to a position they don’t deserve.

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Mark St. Louis

Microsoft has made a good decision here. Keeping up with the MCSE Certs has become a full-time job in itself. XP is already here and the Certs for that are coming soon. 2k is just two years old. Makes it easier if you want to pursue other Certs in other OS's, and keep up with Microsofts at the same time.

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Fred Ward England

I am only reading these comments because my son is an MCSE - I myself am a paramedic. As an outsider to the IT profession I have say I am a shocked to see the bitching and mean spirited vindictiveness that seems to be common place in IT. All this talk of other peoples certifications being “crap” and how newly qualified entrants are useless “paper MCSEs” and how everyone else cheated by using brain dumps which I assume to be some sort of revision aid. It’s not like this in other professions – you don’t hear doctors sneering at newly qualified physicians as paper doctors on the contrary fresh entrants into the profession are welcomed and encouraged. You don’t get neurosurgeons hurling abuse at gynaecologists or consultants pouring scorn on the qualifications of nursing staff. What is the problem with you IT people ? Why are you so unpleasant ? It only confirms the worse prejudices about IT “geeks” namely that they are aggressive, childishly competitive, have no social skills and in short have an attitude problem. If IT technicians want to be regarded as professionals perhaps they should try acting like professionals.

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Aman Khojah Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

I would like to thank Microsoft for making the right decision. I spent a lot of time and effort earning my MCSE. I will now persue 2000 certification, knowing it won't be taken away in a couple years

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 yaser El Hosaney Egypt

Good Decision from Microsoft, to let the market choose the suitable platform for their needs.

Sat, Oct 20, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I think Microsoft expected more W2K MCSE's. It thought that by forcing it's NT4 MCSE's to upgrade that it would some how have an effect on what Operating System the MCSE's employer would run. NT4 is a stable and established platform comanies don't just rip it out because it's IT can now support W2K - there is also a cost involved. The release of XP also added to the overall confusion. Thank goodness Microsoft finally looks like it will start to respect people who have spent the time to qualify on one of it's currently used Operating Systems. I mean what other qualification gets taken off you after you have been qualified for a couple of years.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Scott Minnesota

I am one of those who used the "brain dumps" to help me get certified. I also took the courses to learn the material. I'm sure I would have made it without the brain dumps, but they may have given me some extra confidence going in. 3 of my tests were adaptive, so I don't know how much the "dumps" helped. I believe that the people out there that are complaining about the "paper" MCSE's, are afraid that they can't hold their own against them. I don't work with servers too much in my job, but I still refresh myself by loading it at home every so often and configuring it. How do you know that most of the people that passed using the "dumps" aren't doing the same trying to keep up with the knowledge because they know they went the easy way? Stop bitching because you didn't get to do it. If you don't know the information, you won't keep you job very long. And to those of you who think Microsoft owes us this, they don't owe us a thing. It is their certification and they can dictate anything they want. In some ways it is like a drivers license, if you stop driving after you get your license, you aren't going to be able to drive after awhile. If you stop working with the software, you won't have a clue either.
Keep learning and hug your kids!!!!!!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Mike Dallas

Good Decision from Microsoft. Anyone complaing about unfair to NT3.51, industry already killed it and its a mute point. All the 2000 MCSE's crying about the paper NT4 MCSE's who cares NT4 will be effectively dead within 2 years

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous United Arab Emirates

Its a good move. Higly appreciated. They should not have done this in the first place.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 davet Anonymous

SWEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Sol London

Why is everyone thanking Microsoft for this shambolic behaviour? First they threaten to decertify everyone. Putting everyone under great pressure to recertify. Then they do an about turn when they see their threats didn’t work. Now when they change a policy they never should have adopted in the first place. Everyone thanks them. We have all been played for fools.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Darryl Stewart Las Vegas

I put my heart and soul and a full year into achiving my MCSE. I did not want to spend another year upgarding to 2k. I find very little 2k in this area. Now I can upgrade on my time and still have a life. Thank you Microsoft!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Richard London, UK

I was looking forward to the day when the Paper/Braindump MCSE was a thing of the past. Not so.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Monte Cortez, CO

For those of us living in areas where certification is optional and people look at you with blank faces when you mention Windows 2000, this agrees with us. NT4 will be around for at least two more years in the boonies.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Rehan Los Angeles, CA

I appreciate the decision of Microsoft as it took me a year to become MCSENT4.0 and my current company has no plans to upgrade it to Win2K for next 2 years and that was keeping me in pressure to upgrade my MCSE while working on WinNT4.0

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Des UK

I don’t disagree with the reprieve for NT 4 MCSE. It’s the timing of the decision and the way it was done. For those people who haven’t made life stile changes of who don’t have a hope of achieving the win2k certification before the deadline seem to be happy about the decision. I however did make lifestyle altering decisions based on me taking Microsoft at its word. The fact that I can put 2 titles on my resume and that nothing has really changed in the market is no consolation. I still feel like a casualty of Microsoft’s marketing blunder.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

What's the point really? The IS industry is so over saturated right now that even an MCSE distinction isn’t enough make more money. By the time people find they cannot make money without experience in IS/IT, Windows 2000 will be yesterday’s OS.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 BOB ST. LOUIS

Thanks. Call me crazy, but I hardly used any brain dumps, etc. to get certified. I learned the material! Even though there are many "paper MCSE's" out there, if they don't know wht their doing, for the most part they don't survive. How many of us got bachelors degrees in non IT fields. How crazy it would be if the college "d-bachelored" alums when the updated their curriculums?

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Hoang Irvine, CA

I can have more time with my family now beside studying for MCSE.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 anonymous Overland Park, K

Thanks Microsoft! With many enterprises not moving to Win2k right away, it makes sense to let NT4 MCSE's retain their certs. Not everyone can be on the same schedule!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 anonymous Overland Park, K

Thanks Microsoft! With many enterprises not moving to Win2k right away, it makes sense to let NT4 MCSE's retain their certs. Not everyone can be on the same schedule!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 anonymous Overland Park, K

Thanks Microsoft! With many enterprises not moving to Win2k right away, it makes sense to let NT4 MCSE's retain their certs. Not everyone can be on the same schedule!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Philip (George) Calgary, Alberta

I applaud this decision. Before, it was like getting your driver's license and having it taken away every few years. NT4 was market driven. The demand was so high, the unwanted side effects were paper MCSE's and bootcamps. No one despise these more than I. The MCSE title gets the interview, but the true MCSE gets the job. I'm not threaten or 'de-valued' by them as those now with MCSE2000 feel about this decision. If the market wants MSCE2000, you have nothing to worry about. Its good to see Microsoft is listening to the market.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Since I have to pay for all my own training, and have more of a need for the MCSD track right now, I'm glad to hear that my credentials earned under NT 4.0 are still valid. I'll get around to W2K, but there's only so much money to spread around out of my own pocket.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Arun Bangalore

I wouldn't have bothered to upgrade anyway. Its just another Microsoft Certification.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Gary Johnson Petersburg, VA

Smart move, Microsoft. I've achieved the CCNP, MCSE NT4, MCP+I, Network+, and A+ certifications. Although I am planning to complete the MCSE 2000 track (and CCIE) soon, I think you've help employers and employees alike in the IT/MIS service contracting arena. Now I can bill out my techs more specifically, based on the direct needs of my customers. The paper MCSE issue should never have effected wise employers anyway...we look at certs AND experience. Thanks!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Andy Harrisburg

Great News! I am tired of hearing the "paper this and that arguement." All of the high and mighty know it alls are only fooling themselves. The best IT departments comprise of people who work well in a team environment. I would say that the "paper" will weed themselves out over time and disapear. Lets not constantly cry "paper," doing so only raises suspicion in the minds of employers. Prove what you know, MCSE 2k does not prove anything by itself. Good work does. M$ needs to crackdown on the CTEC's that take inexperienced people, fill their minds with 80k stories and pump out the "paper." Then all certs will mean something again.

Andy MCSE, MCT

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Wolf Holzmann Victoria, Canad

Is this the first bit of common sence that MS has done. I have been certified since Dec. 2000 but I feel that nobody should be able to take away the certification that you have earned. We have got so used to MS changing their mind at the last minute that this was expected. I just feel that this should have been done sooner. The most unprofessional early achiever card sent out should have been a new MCP card stating the W2K certification. This is no grace on the side of MS, just the preasure of the industry has forced this change of heart.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Tregg Hampton, Va

I am pleased at Microsoft's decision not to retire the NT 4.0 track. I worked long and hard for that certification really didn't want to loose my cert. It takes the pressure off my studying for the 2000 track.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 anonymous VA

I appreciate Microsoft's decision. For those of you who do oppose it, well look at the facts. NT 4.0 is still in production around the world. I can on think of a hand full of companies that have publically upgraded/installed 2000 ADV Server/Professional. I agree that the 2000 track would eliminate those 'paper' MCSEs. However, the 2000 track is bringing in another round of those 'paper' MCSEs. All they have to do is pay a couple of thousands of dollars, and then you are a MCSE in 2000. By keeping the certification around (NT 4.0), this will let some of us determine whether or not to go for the 2000. I personally, have decided not to pursue the certification as of yet. I am a recent CCNA certified techie, and feel that the Cisco certs are a better road to more riches and better exposure. However not to say, that I will not eventually look at the MCSE cert again is couple of months/years. GOOD JOB MICROSOFT...

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

There have been alot of career changers that were lured into the field by advertisements make 60K with your MCSE! so alot of them went for it and tried to get into the field without experience, unkowingly to find out that this experience is more important than that paper they paid big bucks for! this is the fault of greedy schools trying to make $$ without any consideration for maintaining integrity of a profession, these paper MCSEs are paying thier dues as well to just even trying to break into a field with blinders on..

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Imagine borrowing thousands of $$ and to only find out that what you paid for and worked hard for is worth nothing! I am so relieved that MCSE NT 4 is here to stay, now I am even more motivated to cert in W2K, that's just one more credential to show that you know that much more!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 George Chukwuka Anonymous

I am very grateful to Microsoft! I went through a lot changing my career as a Mech. Engineer to MCSE! At least now I know my efforts were not in vain. Microsoft, Thanks again!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

About the NT4.0 MCSE's. Not all of them are paper MCSE's. I certified on 4.0 after working with it for over a year. Many have paid their dues to get the MCSE on4.0. The paper MCSE's are those who have not worked with the product at all. They just test well!!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Thank you from those of us in the industry working every day on NT 4.0 Server with no immediate plans to upgrade.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Gary Texas

I support the decision made by Microsoft.
The decision allows Microsoft to create new certifications that will maintain a value as dictated by the market.
In regards to the "paper MCSE's" there will be just as many of those in win2k. These certs are door openers primarily and will never supercede ones experience and work ethics which is what it takes for longterm success in the industry.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 S. Van Der Weide Madison

I think this is a healthy decision on Microsoft's part as it continues to recognize the marketplace and the installed infrastructure of NT servers. While the future may not be overly bright for NT, as some have pointed out, upgrading is either not an option or is clearly not required. I think that Win2k MCSE's will suffer the same fate as NT4 MCSE's; exam information will be dispersed and indivudal test takers will hone their memorization skills. While it is an unfortunate situation, as long as certifications are around, this issue will continue to de-value certain certifications.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Winston London, Ontario

I think Microsoft did the right thing. Out here in the real world companies are still using the older OS's. For example, I worked for six months after gaining my certification in a large mixed environment that was still using Win95 as their main desktop OS. They were in the process of upgrading their servers to NT 4.0 from 3.51, and have absolutely no intention of upgrading to W2K for at least another three to four years. So with that in mind they don't require an MCSE with W2K, they require MCSE's with NT 4.0. My hats off to Microsoft! They allow those with certifications to keep them while still offering the new certifications to those that wish to continue their education. I beleive that you should learn something as you require it.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I think it is a great move by Microsoft. I think my resume will look even better with two distinct MCSE certifications underneath it. More time to really learn windows 2000 and test comfortably.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Tansu An Anonymous

I passed three core exam tests and was prepairing the last one to take in December 2000. I couldn't finished in time so I gave up. Now Microsof turning around and change its decision and telling me tat I am a big looser. I wasted so much time to pass those three tests. If I knew I could try little bit harder to pass the other core exam (NT Server Enterprice) and I would be working on that track today. I feel like an idiot believing to a big company like Microsoft that they are serious. So you guys are telling me "We don't care. You just wasted your time. and BYE!"

Thank You Microsoft

I never forget it.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Tim UK

A welcome concession to the "real" world. A university does not withdraw degree qualifications because the syllabus has changed!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 anonymous Indiana

For all you MCSE 2K's who certified before the 12/31 deadline: CONGRATULATIONS!!! Job WELL done! However, quitcherbellyachin! So Microsoft changed its mind. Big Deal. It is for me, because I haven't finished my W2K track. For that I am appreciative. I can concentrate on a greater in-depth knowledge of the OS and its deployment before I sit for the exams. As for the references to the "paper" MCSE's on the 4.0 track, who cares? The IT industry will weed out those that can and those that can't perform "on the line" You have the paper, all you have to do is demonstrate that you have the knowledge to back it up with on the job performance.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Steve Iowa

Distinguishing between the MCSE's, NT4.0, and W2K is definately the way to go. Obviously, the retirement had people scrambling to recertify (with only 47,000 completed to date), even in many cases where the environments they work in are NOT W2K yet. I applaud the gesture on Microsoft's part to not mandate, but to recommend. With fewer W2K MCSE's out there, it will only improve the significance of those that do, based on the fewer numbers.

Now, I can enjoy the holiday season, without busting my butt to study before 12/31.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 W2K & NT4 MCSE Chicago

This is another case in point of Microsoft's word not being trustworthy. How will they ever rid their onus of dishonor?
Microsoft, please do not provide excuses; from you, they are worthless. Please resolve to conduct yourselves with dignity in the future.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

It seems that a lot of MCSEs are forgeting about those of us that worked just as hard as they did for our certifications, just to find that our certification was going to be taken from us. I agree about the distinction between 4.0 and 2000, but I think I read about that in the article. The other thing you need to remember, it is you that proves yourself not a piece of plastic in your walet. If feel that you need to get a CCNP, go for it there are as many PAPER CCNAs and CCNPs as MCSEs, unless you go to a real school and learn cisco's way of networking.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous florida

I think MS's decision is a great one! I worked hard to get my MCSE. Now I can study for my W2K MCSE without cramming. I dont feel that W2K MCSE's have been cheated. Not every NT MCSE is a "paper" MCSE. NT certs are still valuable. Many companies cant upgrade because of third party software that dosent suport W2K. This is the area that needs to be addressed. More support for W2K means less "paper" people. We want hands on experience!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Gus Florida

It was inevitable that this would apply, and have no doubt it was mostly due to lack of sales and adoption of W2K. it goes to show that even MS has to listen to the voice of the market. I got the W2K MCSE earlier this year, did not even bother with the upgrade exam, but I dont feel cheated for the extra effort. In fact, I believe the core exams were easier than the 4.0 exams, but the design exams were much more difficult, yet did not prove or test a darn thing, just the ability to take a very difficult to read and navigate test. Until they get a lab scenario like Cisco- the cert is meaningless. Nothing from the test helps me during my day to day work- much less troubleshooting when something goes wrong. Mostly helps me answer stupid questions from the boss! Thanks to the new decision, now I have two titles! No big deal either way.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Gardiner Nashville

In response to Chris from Texas, it is a small man who will overlook a qualified candidate merely because he is an NT 4 MCSE. I worked my tail end off to achieve the MCSE+I and MCT certifications, and I am surely not a "paper MCSE." Judge a person by their abilities, not whether or not they have the same certification as you. There will be a need for a few more years for MCSEs who know NT because not all companies are going to run out and run Windows 2000, run an overnight upgrade to 2000, or make the jump to Windows 2002. I think Microsoft made the right decision. They should not be determining WHEN an operating system is no longer in demand. Leave that to the marketplace.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Lyle Denver, CO

It's a catch 22. I'm happy that my certs will remain intact. However, I feel that the number of paper MCSEs is going to continue to grow and further devalue the credentials. I just hope companies take care to look beyond the paper when hiring.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 pradeep India

Thank u microsoft. Iam not particular about losing certification credibility.but the hard work put on the same is recognised.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Thank You. I had worked very hard at obtaining my MCSE on the NT 4.0 track and am a person who knows a great deal about hardware and networking. It is difficult to say when it would be possible for me to study for the Win2K certfication with my extremely busy schedule.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Wim Arnhem, Netherlands

Nick Clark, I´m in the same situation and I couldn´t agree with you more!!

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Anil Sakaria London

Great!! After working so hard to achieve the NT4.0 MCSE, the pressure is off to upgrade by a deadline.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 MCSE NT4 Virginia

I think it's great that Microsoft has changed their mind. I worked very hard for my MCSE NT4 and spent a lot of money on it as well. Just because there are some "paper" MCSE's out there doesn't mean that every MCSE NT4 should be labeled and have to recertify to prove themselves to other MCSE's who have "been working in the field". Win 2K is still too new for there to be "experts" in that arena. Technology is too vast and ever-changing for anyone to "know-it-all". There are enough jobs for everyone. Captialize on your strengths and put the gloves down.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 Steve Howarth Fleetwood UK

On the whole I think it's a good decision. NT 4 MCSE's will retain their certification: W2K MCSE's will probably have an edge in the job market, so the upgrade was worthwhile.

Will I still be able to qualify for MCSE+I? I've passed all the core exams & 1 elective. I just need 1 more elective.

Fri, Oct 19, 2001 sesan lagos

Thanks to microsoft for that brilliant decision because I went through hard time to earn my MCSE 4.0, though I taught I will lose the certification because I can not take Upgrade this year because of the state of my health. I think now I can still take the Upgrade when am 100% well without the need to start allover. Many thanks to Bill and his guys.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 DBeauvais Vancouver

Great!!
It's makes a lot more sense to let the market decide.
I got my certification at 50yrs old. I worked my butt off to get it and brain dumps were not an option. My memory wouldn't allow it even from a book. I had to do it on a practical basis. I bougt another computer and parcticed over and over and over till I new it inside out. I installed server at home and exchange.
I wrote every exam twice and Network Essentials 3 times.

I'm thrilled that I can keep my certification.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Anonymous Phx

Microsoft just didn't more CNE's in the market place than MCSE's.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Matthew Lake Charles, LA

It is a smart decision by Microsoft to keep all the certified ITs on board. Certainly there is a need for professionals in all Microsoft tracks. They could not achieve any goal by decertification of NT Professional. In my opinon Microsoft must also extend the deadline for 70-240 as well. Why Not?

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Raul Panama, now in Chicago

This was a mistake by Microsoft from the beginning, as well as it is still a mistake to not recognize the W9X exam, as part of the core to make the Accelerated Exam. I was in that situation and proved to have the knowledge and expertise getting the MCSE in Windows 2000, doing all 7 exams, real fast... You should AT LEAST give MCSEs who have certified in Windows 2000 till this date some type of recognition, and also TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE EFFORT partners and solution providers do in this matter, specially outside the U.S. You have in some way degraded the MCSE in Windows 2000 certification... I'm moving to Networking and Security Certifications... it's an interesting field and they look more serious... MS: you are a good company, but sometimes you make this really dumb things, I don't get it, why not survey professionals first... like with all "beta SW"... remember MS: the customer, and not you, is 1st.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Farooq Sherwani Pakistan

Remarkable decision taken by Microsoft which has reduced tension among the MCSE N.T. 4.0 Engineers. This will definately encourage them and we are proud to be flag bearers of N.T. 4.0.
Thank you Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Douglas Los Angeles

To all those who think the MCSE title will be less valuable: that is why there will be a designation between NT4 and 2000. An Employer should be able to distinguish between proficiency in one or the other and if they can't, what's the difference? I have an NT4 MCSE and will be more than happy to recertify when it becomes relevant to my job, position or knowledge, not because I am pushed to retain my certification.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Ehtasham Pakistan

This is a very good decision by Microsoft. I think there is still demand of Track 4 certified persons and still many people are haditating to switch over to Windows 2000.
This is the beauty of the Marketing of Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 William T Powers Jr Long Beach, N.Y.

I think this one of the best decisions Microsoft has ever made. Thank you Very Much!

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Aaron So. CA.

Good Call Bill, many companies run a mixed network. Proof of NT skills along with 2K skills make me more marketable. I am only a little bummed about having to take an extra elective, with my Proxy 2.0 being used for NT track.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Jigan Ahmedabad, INDIA

Very Very Good decision...It makes a very good sense.. What is the point in retiring certification for most widely used Microsoft product???????? You can't change trends with in days.... You can't upgrade your hardware without getting good projected earnings...

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 M. Satish Kini Bangalore, India

Good to know that Microsoft is not retiring the MCSE 4.0 Track, i hope that my effort for attaining MCSE has not gone waste..Well done Microsoft

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 P. Terlaje DITC Far East, GUAM

Bless you,
With todays DoD cut-backs and Base Closures, time and train-up certification funding became very tight. It was bad enough that many of our IT technicians were waiting in line just to get NT 4.0 MCSE certified, while at the same time tending to WIN2000 upgrades in both Server and Workstation installation and System Administrative functions. Now we have time to prepare more efficiently aside from our hectic schedule of daily customer services and support matters.
Business shortfalls due to the already low economic industry, contribute to low turn outs in getting personnel upgraded to Win2000 MCSE. Hopefully, there won't be a twist in the Win2000 MCSE title due to the recent release of Windows XP.

V/R P. Terlaje Guam

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 mcse philadelphia

thank you

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Ron Beacom Peterborough

The MCSE 4 certification is a bit of a joke and Microsoft doesn't have the balls to properly certify people. The should make the MCSE exam subject to passing a hands on pratical exam just like the CCIE. Microsoft is only in the certification business to make money just like Novell was. Certfication is a multi-million dollar business. I wonder if Microsoft owns stock in Transcender or Selftestsoftware?

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 John MacBeth Melbourne, FL

Smart move on Microsoft end. Finally they are listening not only to the community that purchases their product but the community that supports their product in the field.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 FEC Atlanta

Very good decision from Microsoft. Win 2k Cert should be an "add on" not a replacement. There are to many NT 4.0 networks out there and there will continue to be many out there for years to come. The NT 4.0 Cert will still be needed for a long time. Win 2K and NT 4.0 are different enough for Microsoft to require certification in each should be enough reason to keep the NT 4.0 alive for years to support the NT 4.0 networks.

Wise move on Microsoft's part.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Ash Chicago

It makes little difference. I now have both. Employers who have a Windows 2000 network or are planning to upgrade at some stage (most) will obviously be interested in MCSE 2000. Those who run an NT network with no plans should hire MCSE NT4. Whether it's valid or not I'll probably put both MCSE NT and 2000 on my resume/CV.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 NT4 MCSE Anonymous

When was the last time you worked with NT3.51 (years back?), W2K outside a test lab (never?), NT4 (minutes ago?). My point is that while 3.51 has for the most part gone, W2K for the most part has never arived and NT4 is still the most common in commercial use. This decision has been long in coming but makes sense.
It won't stop me personally finishing updating my MCSE to W2K, but for many W2K will be worth missing out completely.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Hector New York

Microsoft knew that the majority of the NT4 MCSE wouldn't bother upgrading so they decide to make justice and keep the status quo.
Thanks Microsoft

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 J.Krishna Mohan Hyderabad

This is a very good decision. Microsoft has done justice to MCSE 4.0. Any How this will not stop people from doing WIN2K Certification. As many people appreciate and support better technology.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 mcse,ccsa,ccse,ccna Anonymous

to all those who are complaining about microsoft's decision to not decertify MCSE 4.0.. kiss my #%^&... certification don't mean crap w2k or nt 4.0 ...if you don't have the skills..
if you are still complaining than you must have no skills...

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Can you see the big picture of supply and demand? I see now after working hard to obtain my MCSE 4.0 status, there is no real demand for Win2K out there now. I am relieved that I chose not to upgrade to Win2K. After countless empty promises regarding training and raises at my last place of employment, I took the bold step of starting my own business earlier this year. My attitude was taking initiative and not allowing myself to be overcome by circumstances. I want to keep one foot in the IT biz, but I enjoy landscape contracting. The thought of being your own boss is worth the effort of stepping outside the box. Don't believe the hype, but go with common sense and reality.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Steve Cline London

Just in case anyone doubted that the IT bubble has finaly burst - I just got an e-mail from a recruitment agency offering £250 if you could give them information of an IT vacancy including one created by yourself leaving a job. MCSE NT4 ? MCSE 2000 ? - what does it matter if there are no jobs ?

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Who Cares Microsoft sucks anyways... Run Linux!

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Bert Skaletski Germany

Betrayed about what?! Duped by MS? Don't fix it if it ain't broke. What company in the last years could justify a Win2000 migration? The TCO timing was just set wrong. None of the firms would allow to be dictated from MS. Which means I too saw no reason to jump to MCSE on 2000. At our company, a Win 2000 migration is years away! So what I just might lose my 240 voucher. I can't afford the time to learn yet another system and MCSE on 2000 is not going to bring me more money at the same company.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 John UK

I'm amused at these guys with experience rubbishing certifications. Especially ones they cant attain. I've clicked a mouse for a few years does that make me an expert. I don’t think so neither dose taking backups and formatting a disk a few hundred times and the other mundane things. A monkey can become an expert at doing that. Thats why these guys find it difficult to get certified because it requires effort. Experience is important but so is knowledge and you need both of them to be any good.
Getting back to the original topic I think Microsoft should not have planned the NT 4 MCSE retirement so soon but once committed should have stuck to it otherwise it should have changed its mind a lot earlier than this.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Alan Arizona

I think this is one of the smartest things Microsoft has done to support all those who hold certifications in their product.
Nice going!

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 crisdafish florida

I think its great that microsoft has reconsidered. Their prior thinking was that of my college coming back to me and telling me my bachelors degree isnt good anymore because there has been advancements in the field. Now I dont feel as bad about continuing to pay my IT loan since my cert will still be good.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Atik Beximco Bangladesh

I think it's a Great decision of Microsoft. It will be easier for next XP/.NET server or any other new certification without loosing the previous one.Everything is going to change with time and I must be giving thanks to the autority of Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 18, 2001 Thabu South Africa

GREAT NEWS! As a MCT and Network administrator consulting companies with NT 4 networks (not planning to upgrade at all in the near future), it will benefit and justify the investment made to certify employees. To those who complain? Well, be certified in both (if you're a MCSE NT 4). Nothing to stop you (except exam 70-240). With this announcement: everyone is a winner!

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Microsoft made the right decision to reverse the decision. Those currently certified in Win2K are the paper MCSEs the market should watch out for. They rush to take the next exam by memorizing transender questions and spending hours on exam cram reading other candidates notes on the internet. Shame on them ! Effort....what effort ? Employers are kidding themselves if they really think these candidates can deploy Win2K. This is called on the job training for companies that can afford it.
The best recruiters and employers look for a minimum of five years industry experience and solid certification with professional references.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 K London

I feel like collateral damage, it seems that early achievers = big suckers, thank you Microsoft for this rude wake up call

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Rick Waterbury

I was not going to stop using it on my resume anyway.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Bill Dennis Syosset, NY

Anyone who has to rely a whole lot on their credential (MCSE NT4 or MCSE 2000) for work probably isn't much of a tech in any case. I'm an MCSE NT4 and I simply haven't had the time to study for 2000 exams - too much time on the job doing real world stuff.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I became an MCSE on the NT track half a year ago and I'm happy to see that all my hard work will not have been for naught.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Good decision by Microsoft. NT 4.0 is still used by many corporations. Too bad they made the decision without thinking it through. I know many IT professionals who have abandoned the prospect of gaining certification in MS products and who have moved on to other products.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Harry Los Angeles

Kudos to Microsoft. I worked very hard to obtain my certification for MCSE 4.0. I do intend to get certified in Windows 2000, but currently we are still in an NT 4.0 environment. If and when we migrate to Windows 2000, the ceritfication will be great to have then.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Anonymous los angeles, ca

Well, we screamed about it for the last two years, but truthfully, now I feel rather betrayed. I worked darn hard to get up to date and took pride in knowing that I accomplished it in time. For what???

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Jason Midwest

MS is not in charge of upgrades, individual corporations are. The time and expense of upgrades (not to mention the time spent to become truly proficient) means that eventually MS will have to slow down on pushing out OSs. The market has clearly shown that the life cycle of an OS is much longer than 2-3 years.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 B.A. Edmonton

I agree with the choice to keep the NT certification in addition to the W2K certification. Many offices, like mine, use NT4 very heavily. I would like to remain certified for the products we are using now, not those that Microsoft thinks I need to adopt NOW.



I feel the comments that the MCSE certifications are being watered down are a bit strong. Those people that hold the MCSE but have nothing on their resume are not very likely to obtain employment, especially when going up against an MCSE with 10 years of experience with MS products. Those that DO have the experience to back up their MCSE should have nothing to fear.

We to take care of our own. Remember the MCSE Standards and Guidelines that all of us received in the mail with our pin, wallet card, etc.? Microsoft will a revoke certification if a person does not act in a professional manner or misrepresents the MCSE certification. You know a paper MCSE that is screwing it up for the rest of us? A call to Microsoft can fix his/her wagon by revoking their certification.

We also need to take the tools away from the braindumpin' paper MCSEs or the same 'paper MCSE' thing will happen to the W2K cert. If you come across a site providing braindumps, contact Microsoft. The people providing these braindumps are violating a nondisclosure agreement that each of us agrees to each time we take an exam. That lack of professional integrity is something the MCSE cert does not need. Let Microsoft force the sight to close down, and revoke certifications for posting the braindump info.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Chuck FL

Sorry, Chris from Texas. You sound like a sore loser, or maybe just a loser...

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Lisa NJ

I am happy that Microsoft has listened to it's customers. I worked very had to obtain my certification and I studied HARD. Are you going to take away someone's college degree because it's simply "out dated"? I don't think so; as far as those worried about "paper MCSE's"; let your knowledge and experience speak for itself. Microsoft did the right thing; companies invest too much time and money to just "upgrade" anytime Microsoft decides to develop another OS same goes for their employees.

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 santosh murarka Mumbai

It's excellent decision because it gives enough freedom to professionals of Windows Platform to continue with product and it's a fact that windows NT 4.0 is the core of WIN2K.Now MCSE's will put efforts to upgrade their skills

Wed, Oct 17, 2001 Sarwar Pakistan

It is a great decision taken by Microsoft but its unfair with those who are MCSE 3.51. Microsoft should also look into this matter and provide the same exemption to MCSE 3.51 too.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Peter Placerville

MCSE from Louisville , Learn to spell. I'm glad Microsoft is keeping my MCSE NT 4.0 alive since I passed just before they began to retire the exams. The 3.51 guys had 3 years past NT 4.0's launch before they were supposed to upgrade, we've had less than 2 since product launch.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Bill Missouri

I'm glad Microsoft finally did the right thing about the certification game but it's not going to change my mind about what direction I'm going. It's LINUX time!

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Clyde Johnson on-line

Yep, Here I am looking into 2002 with a brand new Windows 2000 certification that I have busted my a** to get and everybody else gets a reprieve. Makes me love Microsloth even more. I betcha that the reason they changed their minds was that only 11% of the NT4.0 MCSE's upgraded. I betcha that if 20%or 30% upgraded they wouldn't have changed their minds.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Unless my employer demands it of me, I will never subject myself to the needless humiliation of taking a single MS W2K exam. Learn W2K? - certainly; but I am no longer interested in maintaining a bogus marketing credential to help MS sell its products; Novell or Linux is a much better bet!

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Alan Tring London

I feel sorry for all those newbie W2K MCSEs . They were lead to believe that their qualification would give them a unique advantage in the job market as all the old NT 4 MCSEs were retired. But it has not worked out like that because most organisations have “missed out” W2K and instead intend to wait and update to XP – or possibly even wait for Windows.Net. So the most currently marketable certification is MCSE (NT 4) which will give way only slowly to MCSE( XP) and eventually MCSE(.Net) . Leaving MCSE (W2K) largely unwanted – I hear the term “orphan OS “ is started to be applied to W2K. This is caused by the fact that Microsoft is developing new Operating Systems at least twice as fast as the market and their own certification programs can cope with. I often hear the caveat that an MCSE should have at least two years experience of working with a product to avoid being called a paper MCSE. Well Windows 2000 was only around for about 20 months before it’s successor appeared – not long enough for companies to migrate to it and not long enough for MCSE’s (other than the paper variety ) to become certified in it. I think Microsoft need to accept that the effort and cost of upgrading as often as they want us to wipes out any advantage the new product brings. No wonder more and more companies are becoming sceptical about the business benefits of spending money in pursuit of the ever faster upgrade cycle.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Doug Skrivan Tacoma, WA

I think this announcement at this late date stinks. If I would have know this from the start I would have felt the pressure to complete the WIN2K Track. On the other hand maybe Microsoft will give those who are current TechNet (hint, hint) for free (again). This would encourage MCSE to stay current.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Thank You !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We appericate your decision.
Thanks.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Al Canfield Hudson, Wi

Some one asked and so I posted from certcities site, # of Nt 4.0 MCSE's 431,306 as of 08/01/2001

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Hal Seattle, Wa

Every MCSE is a paper MCSE without a solid background. If you don't think an employer looks at your background your nuts. Without a solid background your nothing but a mouse changer. All a paper MCSE does is keep Transcender and the others in business. They dont get jobs based on experience. CNA A+ MCP+I MCSE

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Rox Ft. Lauderdale, FL

I am surprised that Microsoft did the right thing to allow us to make the decision on when to upgrade our skills.
I hope that they will continue to list to us in the future.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 jatin mehta Indore (India)

Hye Freinds , Its nice for all of us who are at presently working on NT 4.0 & want to upgrade themselfs like me, we are getting very nice opportunity by extending the period of upgrading for the paper.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 sanjay sharma Indore (India)

It is nice decision for all of us, those who are presently working at some where, they get suitable time to update themself.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Neonteepee Melbourne, Oz

What I want to know is when are Microsoft going to realise they are making a blunder with the 70-240 as well. I suspect that a lot of the people who havent upgraded are in a similar position to myself. TOO DAMN BUSY thanks to amongst other things, multiple new OS's to get to grips with.

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Like someone said, 'I, like most, am preparing to take on the W2K track. But now I don't feel the need to rush and memorize things so that I can pass a test. I can take the time to really learn the product and be a "productive" rather than a "paper" MCSE. ' Many of us aren't paper MCSEs and thank Microsoft for this decision. We will still on the upgrade way!

Tue, Oct 16, 2001 Tabish Abrar Karachi, Pakistan

MS has chickened out as expected!. They should have continued with their decision to retire MSCE for NT 4.0 because about half of them did that by going through Brain Dumps and mock test and cant even install Server!. The only way to make the certification worthwile is to make the tests resemble real life problems. The current format is just plain too easy!. That is the reason that people are turning towards CISCO certification.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Sandi Whitwell St. Louis, MO

Whew!

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Rick McCormick Toronto

Good news. It took a lot to get the MCSE and I am not use to having my education devalued. I was thinking of switching my certification path to Unix because at least it would keep its value (since it rarely changes).

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Kurt Anonymous

Okay, let me try to assist everyone here. A certification means that you SHOULD know this stuff. It doesn't prove that you DO know this stuff. I have met paper MCSEs from both the 2000 and 4.0 worlds. I know many paper B.S.'s B.A.'s and even one paper PHd. People that worked the system to get a piece of paper. These paper's should only help you get a foot in the door, not full access to the room. So, I suggest we stop crying and start firing idiots that can't cut it (that would really scare the pants off of the IT world).
I only took the tests because simply knowing the information and having experience wasn't enough.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 mark Anonymous

i am MCSE 2000. here's my 2 cents.

1 EVERYONE knew they shouldn't retire mcse nt 4 this soon, so why didn't MICROSOFT figure it out until just recently?!

2 EVERYONE knows there are a tonne of paper mcse's for nt4, and microsoft themselves said that 2000 cert was designed to eliminate that. it didn't. now, we're stuck with all those mcse nt 4 people... it makes my 2000 cert less valuable. (hopefully intelligent employers will see past this)

3 they really know how to piss people off! look how hard so many people were struggling to upgrade so they could keep their mcse title. now, after all that effort, time, and ca$h, they are told, "hey, don't sweat it..."

microsoft=morons

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Charles Washington

I am very happy about the decision! I don't feel so pressured now. I can now recertify at my own pace rather than Microsoft's pace!

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Rafi Israel

Will we still be able to take the 70-240 after Dec 31 or will that still be cancelled at the end of 2001?

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 J.Yurth-MCSE Hawaii

Hopefully this decision will stop the MCSE 4.0 techs from getting "Your certification isn't valid after Dec 31 st" from the jealous non-certified techs. Certification is still a way for managers to see an employees extra effort and commitment to their company. Please keep them valid until the software itself is retired.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Kenny B. Irvine, CA

Finally a break through…! Microsoft realized NT4 will be around longer then anticipated. My theory is, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And most of my existing clients still do not consider upgrading to win2k, even less to XP…
Although I completely opposed the forceful decision to retie MCSE’s on the 4.0 track, I had to recertify on the 2k track just so that I can meet the potential demand for my business. Does this mean I am holding 2 MCSE certifications…? I guess that remains to be seen…

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I'm willing to bet MS had some pressure from the outside. Think of all the Tech schools, colleges, boot camps, book publishers and such. Thousands are graduating MCSE and now it wothless!. $6,000.00 down the tubes. Ol MS knows not to bite the hand that feeds them.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 NT4 MCSE Vancouver

Great decision Microsoft - my W2k upgrade will still happen, but at a more relaxed pace. Its a pity some have sour grapes over this.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 James Chicago, IL

I love this decision! My reason is that I have CNE, MCSE in NT 4.0. I planned to upgrade to MCSE 2000 anyway. I do all of my studies by books, microsoft videos and work experience. I cannot be considered a paper MCSE if I put those studies to work in a real world environment ,or learn it on a home network or in a classroom. Thanks Microsoft!!!!!

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Bill H. Cincinnati, OH

I earned by MCSE certification on NT.4 in January 2000. I wanted to upgrade to 2000 but have been too busy with work and completing my undergraduate degree to dedicate the time
to upgrading to 2000. I am a Database Administrator. Now I can retain my MCSE NT.4 status and work toward MCDBA certification. Thank you Microsoft, for makin a hard and fair decision.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Tony Irvine, CA

So what's going to happen with the Accelerate Exam and the voucher that was handout to our MCSE after all. Is it still usable? What's the deadline for that? Does anyone know??

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Althea Houston, TX

I decided to upgrade to Win2K, but in my own time, not Microsoft's. All the time and effort that every MCSE has put into their certs, pushing Win2K, was a bit much. I am very glad they made this decision.

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 All you Paper MCSE Texas

Waaa Waaa!!!! Give me a freaking break, I have been in technology for over 10 years now and I have seen many PAPER MCSE'S that cannot even tell you how to distinguish between workstation or server. Of course out of the 400k 4.0 MCSE out there there is a good percentage of paper MCSE's but probably 95% of the 47K 2000 MCSE are BASIC PAPER TECHS!!!!!! Trust me I have met many 2000 SE's especially those that come from a CPA background or elsewhere (career change) into technologyy damm its pitifullllll. And as for you recruiters come on, yeah at one point about 3 three years ago you could have hired a plumber or CPA and put them into a consulting position but now people are realizing so becareful how you guys recruit. Maybe companies need to restructure the recruiting process. Way to MICROSOFT......

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 Peter Texas

I would just like to say that Microsoft has made a very good decision(finally). I am a very positive and Pro Microsoft supporter and worked very hard in obtaining the 4.0 certs. I truly did intend on moving to the 2000 certs but because technology is so dynamic there was just not enough time outside of consulting to do so. Now I will get certified for either the 2000/XP certification willingly, before I was just going to push some other OS until Microsoft made the right decision.

Good Job!

Mon, Oct 15, 2001 APP Raleigh NC

Thank you Microsoft!!!!

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Geoff Kelowna, BC, Canada

As a Win2000 MCSEs who passed the accel test and completed the new certs to upgrade my NT4.0 MCSE, this stinks. At the least, send me TWO little lapel pins, so my employer will know what I was doing when I drove myself bonkers reading for two hours a night and borrowing computers for "network experiments" in order to learn the new stuff.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Amit India

thank you very much. I will be good for all MCP & MCSE.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Jim N. Idaho

Microsoft did the right thing. They were trying to strongarm the industry and ram Win2k down the throats of Systems Engineers and corporations. This step recognizes the large installed base of NT4 without discarding the hard work put in by NT MCSE's. Having just passed my 240 exam, I sympathize with those Win2k MCSEs out there that are upset over this. But with XP here now, they would be cursing Microsoft next year for retiring the Win2k exams.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Reece Miami

What many of you fail to realize is at the present rate of technological advancements, and as crappy as an os windows can be each version is more and more hands off. So when all the present m$ minions are retired and sipping drinks on some sunny beach, we all will be struggling to find jobs in our old age because they’ve invented an os that doesn’t need human intervention. So right now we are just making them richer and richer with our eagerness to run and upgrade to the new more “powerful” “better” os. Not to mention all the revenue generated from software purchasing, licensing fees, training fees, calling their tech line, certification exam fees, book fees, workshops, etc..etc. I wonder what good that piece of paper will really be in the long run, but I guess the same can be said for some college degrees, but not to many of them. They can take away the value of a piece of paper, but they cannot take away the knowledge you have gained. If you doubt me then go and get and load yourself an old copy of window’s 3.11, 95, nt 3.51. ms office 4.3 or office 95. MCSE what does it really? I have more knowledge then many of the non-paper MCSE’s I know. Bottom line nothing beats experience.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Anthony Miami

I believe m$ really wants to push the market towards windows xp, in terms of home use, business use, certification, everything.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

This is TOTALLY REDICULIOUS!!! Now the people who actually have "Real" experience and can do the job are screwed again. People cannot pass the Windows 2000 tests so easily so Microsoft has to recind and let there be paper MCSE's out there... This sucks for us who know our stuff and work hard everyday at it and now have MCSE on Windows 2000. Only an NT 4 MCSE will be happy since they cannot pass the new tests by cheating... The new tests (Case Study) are real world tests that show the true knowledge of someones experience....

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 IT Manager Albuquerque NM

I am the IT Manager of medium corporation with 8 WAN links over 500 users and 22 NT4 servers PDCs/BDCs/Members/Exchange/etc. This announcement has lifted an 800lb burden. It took me two months to analyze and propose all subsidiaries be consolidated under the new licensing agreements. If that weren't enough I had to find over 75,000$ for upgrade licensing, time to deploy, and cram for the W2K 70-240 exam. Tonight I can sleep. Thank you Microsoft for listening. As for paper MCSE's, I ask 10 key interview questions then give the candidate a deliberately crashed server to fix. Many candidates quickly shoot themselves in the foot.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 MARIAM HALLAB LEBANON

Thank you very much
It was a good decision

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Mario G. Texas

This is Microsoft way of helping the industry it has created (Ceritification industry with is worth billions). Giving that only 47,000 win2k MCSE's actually took the time and effort, Microsfot realized that it needs o retain the NT certification in order to keep a demand for NT ceritication products. Also, Microsoft is realizing that people will not jump to a new O/S just because it's out. The idea of diffentiating MCSE's by O/S is defenely a good one though, assuming they don't change their mind AGAIN. If they never retire a certication on a specific O/S is good because that way you will always be MCSE-NT, or MCSE-200, or MCSE-XP, or MCSE-Whistler, or all of the above. I'm waiting to see what they decide to do with MCSD or MCDBA. My guess is that they will do the same.
To those saying that NT is worth less than that paper it's printed on, I say win2k is just the same as long as there is TroyTeck out there people will still have to proove themself on the job. Yes, I also know MCSE's who cannot even configure a multihome machine.

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Great news first time from Microsoft

Sun, Oct 14, 2001 Ricardo P Houston, Tx

I most definitely understand the frustation of those that achieved the W2K certification by now. It shows dedication and discipline, I don't doubt that. But at the same time, some of us worked hard to earn the MCP NT 4.0. I passed 3 out of the 6 exams. Why only 3?.. I had to finance my own school and exams. And not working in the IT field at that time made it difficult. Even after achieving my MCP status, I had a hard time to enter the field. Other people have the benefit from their employer to pay for all of that. I didn't. For that matter, I agree with their decision. I know that the certification that I hold, I really earned it and it feels only fair that I get to retain it.

Ricardo P.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

it'good, but it's better to some thing do it for EXAM 240

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Rob VA

I have to laugh at this debate. What a F***ing JOKE!! I got my NT 4 MCSE through hard work, labs and great instructors. I learned the concepts, passed the exams and then got a job working with Windows 2000! Is that my fault? F**k no! Certification counts for only so much. What really matters is experience and your ability to work with people. The mad rush to pass all the necessary W2K exams is hilarious! First, in case no one noticed, we are in a recession. No one in my area is buying W2K for mass rollouts! After the projects I've worked on, I've learned two things. Executives listen to accountants and IT does not instantly make companies a profit! I'm learning W2K for skills and moving on to SQL. There are too many networking people and companies are putting their money toward databases.
There are less MCDBAs anyway! Thanks for the laughs!

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Glad to hear that MS has realized their mistake. Even more important than keeping the NT4 certification is the change in policy. It can take years for a working profesionals to find enough time for certification. Meanwhile, NT4 was just recently implemented at many companies for Y2K compliance and they are not likely to migrate (to W2k or XP) any time soon.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Tim NJ

Good move for all!

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 DenverMCSE Denver

Bottom line....the NT 4 tract was a joke. It ruined the MCSE title. I was thrilled when Microsoft turned the screws tight on W2k. With this move....it's back to being another worthless title. I'm going after the Cisco certs....at least they're credible. I own an IT firm, and I can guarantee you that if you don't have the W2K cert, you won't work here after 31 Dec.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I'm glad Microsoft is keeping the MCSE 4.0 Cert and will keep supporting NT 4.0.
IT Budgets have been tight this year, so most company plans to upgrade were put on hold until Q1 2002.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Rajiv New Jersey

GREAT decision on behalf of Microsoft. Makes more sense to keep the cert title because retiring an exam doesn't take the skills away.Now we can enjoy the best of both worlds

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 anonymous GA

I have to agree with the last two posts. Without recertification, like Cisco does (every two years..even their CCIE have to retest) how in the world are these NT people going to stay current. I respect their hard work in getting to the levels they are at, but technology is ever changing, you people have to change with it. Get the current knowledge, or to me, as a recuiter, you are useless.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 disgruntled AZ

The real issue is wether or not MCSE NT4 people are going to try and upgrade their skills. I read alot here about people that feel they can relax and take their time and breathe a sigh of relief. The whole point of having Certs is to prove you undertand "Current Technology". Not old technology. I guess that it is okay to be a MCSE in NT, as long as you dont try to pass yourself off as someone that is capable of dealing with todays new technologies. Stick to your old jobs, and dont come to my company applying as a "MCSE in NT but I can handle Win2000K also"

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 anonymous MCSE"2000" or w phx, AZ.

this is totally ridiculous. How many MCSE's in NT do you think are going to put THAT on their resume. Instead we will now have a bunch of "behind the curve", slow to certify people hedging around the question about wether or not they are able to deal with a WIN2000K enviroment. "Let employers sort it out?" how many employers take the time to research what version of Cert someone holds. MCSE is almost as worthless as A+ now. uggghhhh.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Anonymous Pittsburgh

For all of you out there with or without the "Paper MCSE attitude, I would appreciate your definition of a paper mcse. Is it different than a person graduating college with a bs or mba, etc. with no other experience. Whats the diff?

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Charelle Maryland

Thank you Microsoft. I am currently working on my Masters degree in MIS and do not have the time required to study for the 2000 MCSE track. It it still a goal but now I can relax a bit.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Ramiro Cincinnati, Ohio

Gracias a Microsoft,

VIVA MICROSOFT and Bill Gates!!!!

One test to go MCSE NT 4.0

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Patrick Ashburn, VA

I think the whole "paper MCSE" thing is a bunch of hooey. I'm sure there will be a large number of "Paper Win2000" MCSEs as well, as soon as more cheat sheets become available.

I'm an NT4 MCSE and found the training quite valuable. I took a quickie, $2500 course and found the instructor well informed and professional. My first job after obtaining the cert paid me $50,000 per year. Three weeks later I got another job for $65,000 per year. I've received raises since then.

I use the MCSE material every day, and am thankful that such an option existed for a 54 year old career changer.

It's a valuable certification.

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Michael Melbourne Australia

I spent a lot of my own time and money getting the NT 4.0 MCSE and I think it makes good sense to retain the qual. There are a lot of companies around who are sick to death of having to fork out for new ungrades every 2 years. I think that the flood of companies upgrading to win2K ( Microsoft hoped for) hasn't eventuated. I know from experience that there are still a lot of companies who are happy using NT 4.0 and see Microsoft trying to force them (indirectly to spend on upgrading). Nevertheless, I am contiuning my on study towards MCSE win2k but at a more relaxed pace. I is good to see that Microsoft is making use of the comptia certs towards MSCA. In summary, it's a refreshing change for Microsoft to consider the customers for a change...."Bring on Linux"

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Christian AIN France

Very Good Decision : it's plenty of Clients with NT 4 Servers all around the world.
And it's not because Win2000 is a super OS, that by the day of 31/12/2001 we shuld loose our brains and all of our competences with NT4

Sat, Oct 13, 2001 Big Al Houston,Texas

Most of my clients are small businesses,and the cost factor played a significant role in allowing them to migrate to W2K from NT4. I am pleased to hear of this decision from Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Hussain Hadi Karachi, Pakistan

Thanks to Microsoft. Now I am relexed as there is no deadline like 31/12. Good decision as there was very bad image about Microsoft that why they are forcing to be MCSE 2000 certifited and students were not doing MCSE that it will also expire in near future and they will be forced to upgrade. Thanks again to Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I agree with the decision but why retire the accelerated exam so soon then. That I feel was a huge mistake

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Richard O. San Diego CA

I feel this is a good decision. I consult for about forty small to mid size companies, and only a hand full have made the jump to WIN2K. The biggest factor I have found is hardware replacement and not functionality reasons.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 MCSE NT 4.0 and MCSE 2000 Ontario,Canada

To all of those MCSE 2000 people out there that feel betrayed, grow up, I have ran into several people who are certified in Windows 2000 who can't install a sever or a NIC either (and by the way there are a great deal of braindumps out there for W2K tests), be proud of your accomplishments. If you don't think your MCSE title is worth the paper it is printed on then you shouldn't have it. NT 4.0 will be retired soon and then the MCSE NT 4.0 who didn't take the time to upgrade will be feeling the pinch.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Ed Indy

This sucks talk about total confusion in the market place. Plus what about those nt mcse's that have passed 240 are they now MCSE NT and MCSE 2k? What about those that failed and are currently workign toward 2k.

What is the driving force to do a cert now?

BONE HEAD MOVE

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 mark philly pa

I am still wondering why I took a loan $20000 for this win 2000 mcse thing, No real job yet, those salesmen are good, time to declare bankrutpcy :)

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 RIck High Point, NC

I feel that the decision not to retire the NT 4.0 Certs was a wise one for many reasons. However, I wonder that if a new gradute of medical school or any other profession would appreciate being called 'a paper doctor, lawyer, or teacher'. A young recruit out of a military boot camp is refered to as a soldier and not a 'paper soldier'. I think that anyone who will sit their butt down for hours to take classes and study for and pass tests ought to be commended for their efforts. Talk about your 'class envy'. The 'old' guys need to rethink their position. I am not aware of any profession outside of the IT field who look on new 'collegues' with such distain. Like any other profession we need to let the natural process take it's course. The weak ones won't survive if we don't feed them. Of course, if we truly care about our profession wouldn't we all benefit from mentoring even the 'paper' MCSE's? How can anyone who has their W2K MCSE feel that their Certification means less today than 48 hours ago? Those who have reached the next 'platform' are way ahead of the game. Sept 11, 2001 should have taught us all that life is too short. By the way, yes I am a 'Plastic'(not 'paper' MCSE NT 4.0 whose employer appreciated my efforts and gave me the opportunity to build my skills.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Donald DC Metro Area

well, I can see that there are a lot of mixed emotions here. I myself am startled. I am an NT4.0 MCSE and mind you, this certification was obtained through hard work, study and live world experience. I think it's an insult and very prejudgemental of folks to discount us the way they do. I did'nt study any freakin braindumps to do this!! Right now, I have MCP status in Windows 2000 myself. As a matter of fact I took the Accelerated exam last week and just missed. I went back a couple of days later and almost aced 2000 Pro. Because of the attitudes I see towards MSCEs in NT4.0, and the nepatism that I see in the server admin branch where I am, I don't think I'll waste another penny with this crap. I've been working in Network Management for a year now and obtained CCNA, Nortel and Fore certs. Now, I'm not sure if I want to continue to persue any Microsft certs because of the prejudice attitudes that folks have towards us. So, to all of you people who are in charge of hiring folks, If you choose to overlook MCSEs in NT4.0 because of your own prejudgemental attidude, you can take your job and shove it up your a~~!!!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Ray from Harare Harare, Zimbabwe

I earned my NT 4.0 certification in Zimbabwe. Windows 2000 is not widely used there - with the previous deadline I had no hope of gaining the necessary hands on experience in order to take the upgrade exam. Now at least I can still be certified while moving toward Wndows 2000. Bravo Microsoft! A good decision.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Kendall Riverside, CA

I am very pleased with Microsoft's decision. I am a NT MCSE and I worked very hard for it. However I wasn't too eager to go after the Win 2K cert.
I am currently pursuing my Degree because I decided that I would invest my time in Education that will last me a lifetime.
BIG THANKS!! to Microsoft
I may go ahead work towards the
70-240 to stay up to date.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I'm glad M$ listened finally. But I'm still taking the Accelerated just because it's the only FREE test option!! What have I got to lose. I pass and I don't have to pay for 4 tests. Yes, there are paper MCSE's out there, but those doing the job interviews just need to tech people out. That will separate the paper from the real.

Check this out - I know people that got all the answers from the entire question pool for the NT4 track. They were on sale on the black market in India. These people can't even do basic file copying yet they are MCSE's. My company just fired them. I certainly hope there's no black market for answers anymore. The tests should be simulations all the way.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Joe Ciancimino Houston, Texas

I have to give a sigh of relief if any thing. Granted, I as many have been working towards certification under Windows 2000 MCSE. My co-workers and myself though have been facing a local disaster here in Houston. 1999 we had troubles with enough bandwidth for the city and many offices moved to Dallas, followed by 2000 an economic slow down, then 2001 the city was flooded by a tropical storm. Frankly right now I am scrounging to buy food much less pay for my own certification. Is having an MCSE for Windows 2000 a good thing? Yes, there is no doubt about it. Take away my, and my fellow workers credentials that we worked hard to get in the first place in difficult times? No and most I have talked to locally were mad at Microsoft for their arrogance and went towards Cisco certification because it has more value. Novel has put on their certification what it represents. You don’t get a college degree and then have to update it. It is about time.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Gilbert /MCP4.0 New York

finally some common sense - I worked my butt off to get certified for 4.0 and felt cheated to be decertified when the market still demanded my skills.
Now I feel more comfortable going after my 2000 certs.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Shralper Austin

It should have been this way all along. Though I worked with Win2k at a large company for about 6 months last year, I now work for a smaller company that is still running on NT 4. We have no immediate plans to upgrade, so I don't even have the opportunity to even get hands-on experience with Win2k anymore.

If I were to start studying for the Win2K exams now, it would have be on my own time, in a mockup Win2k environment in my house with a single server and client. I'd also be taking practice exams to make up for my inability to work daily with a live Win2k environment. But isn't that exactly what MS wants to eliminate? Isn't the Win2k MCSE supposed to have lots of real world experience with the product?

If anything, the new rules will prevent more paper MCSEs in Win2k. I no longer have to worry about completely losing my MCSE status, so you won't find me going to any boot camp just so I can play with Win2k.

Why should those certified on NT 4 be denied the title of MCSE on NT 4? The product isn't going away anytime soon. Plus, I've worked daily with the product since NT 3.51.

As far as new win2k MCSE's feeling cheated goes, they will always be looked more favorably. They aren't being cheated at all.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Lexington KY

MCSE cert is a RIP. we all know that with all the Troy Techs and Boot camps they are teaching you the test. Two fellow workers just got MCSE Cert and they have never logged on to a server or network.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Wise Choice Canada

This is a very smart move Microsoft has made. I know there are many corporations that are not planning to deploy W2K anytime soon. Many people spent a lot of time and $money$ getting an MCSE NT4.0 certification. While I am interested in the 2000 certification I was very unhappy with the idea of losing my certification after only two years and having spent a small fortune in school! Any W2K holders that are whining better wise up and realize that an NT4.0 certification with any type of real experience is still worth more to corporations than a W2K certification and no experience. Good job Microsoft!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Ed Bellardino Massachusetts

A good decision. I just got my MCSE in NT4.0 in the summer of 2000. I've aready passed 70-210 & 70-215 for the Win2k track. After I get MCSE in Win2000 i'm jumping ship and going for my UNIX cert or Redhat, not sure yet. Unix admins that know Microsoft NOS's make good money.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 jahromi M mehrdad LA

It 's a good decision for the people who doesn't want to work hard & upgrad themself.
I think this decision stop IT people to run with last version of microsoft & also stop the costumer from upgradin the old version to new one.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

This is all well and good but what does this do to Microsoft Certified Partners, do we need to still have 2 MCSE in 2000 people or do the MCSE 4.0 going to count now towards the certification process.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I feel that this is great , being that I am cert. in 4.0. And that I don't have to worry about 12/31. As for those people who make comments about "Paper MCSE's" how can it be that such people can't install NT server. All you shpuld worry about is how much you, yourself know about MS/OS. That will be your saving grace. Thanks MICROSOFT!!!!!!!!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I think MS made a good decision. I was not going to work hard on a cert that may be useless at the end of the year. W2K will be superceded by .NET by next year. I will still take the 240 test but, if I don't pass, no big deal. I'll work on it when I have time.
MSs earlier decision did help me in one respect, I signed up for classes to finish a bachelors degree. No one can take that away!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I guess Win2K isn't selling as hot as they thought it would. Time to go back to grad school where you don't have the answers to the tests. And when you do, they call it cheating.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Louisville,Ky.

This was a well planned choice since we will all have to upgrade to 2K eventually, but the 4.0 Cert. will be around for some time to come reconized by Microsoft or not. I applaud Micrsoft's decision, this is in the best interest for all in the long run.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Ron Anonymous

Bravo to Microsoft for finally coming around. Soured by the whole retirement thing, I had decided to stop at MCP after passing W2K Server and opted for the Novell CNE track. Although I will still pursue CNE (I'm halfway there) I too will reverse my decision and upgrade my MCSE down the road.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Joe Maryland

A+ is no longer a simple entry program. Any MCSEs who are not A+ certified are probably next to worthless. The A+ curriculum changed this past Feb., 2001. The material is difficult and comprehensive. Most MCSEs would not pass it.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

It's true from MCP magazine

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous MCSE+I Tanzania (Dar es Salaam)

I support what my name sake from Pittburg is saying.

There is too much hype in the IT industry not only in MCSE world but everywhere you go someone who has been there thinks that he has the world and its the end and all new comers will never get there have to prove themselves to whom I dont know!

You first have to get a certificate paper or otherwise and then if you are working go back and aply the knowledge and skills as appropariate if not working somewhere first you have to find a job and get the experience and hands-on skills and tricks and stuff. Again if you are working it all depends if your company is an end user or IT provider etc.

I dont understand why the hype. What material is their certificates printed on?

Do they have a metallic or golden certificate for the blood sweat and tears they have put into their working experience since the time they got the paper certificate? Or are their certificates done in paper used for the aramic writings during the times of Jesus? Would it matter if they were? Why did they go for the paper certificate in the first place?

Only a fool will think that he/she knows all and does not need to study anymore. I believe there is a new thing to be learnt every minute/hour/day if we only but look with open eyes and minds

those non-paper certifieds give us a break, we know what we want and thats why we started along this path

again kudos to Microsoft....

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

To Chris from Texas, when you come down off your high and mighty W2k thrown, I'll tell you about my effort, desire and ability to learn NT 4.0. And who put you in a position to judge and hire anyway. I'd like to get my hands on his certification.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

To do away with all NT 4.0 MCSE's because someone got theirs by memorizing braindumps is as pathetic as "Kill them all and let God sort them out"

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous MCSE+I Tanzania (Dar es Salaam)

It couldn't have come at the right time.

I have studied for WIn2k and was preparing for the Accelerated exam but I think I will sit for individual exams next year and give myslef enough time to prepare. In fact our office has just moved to WInNT a year ago and next upgrade is uncertain, could be two years or more.

Not many training centres had expertise in Win2K and so Win2K MCSEs would have been more half baked than WinNT.

Also most organisation not here in Tanzania alone but Europe and the US, some reputable universities etc are now, after Y2K and all that , moving to WinNT!

There is also the feeling that Win2K hasn't matured yet and organisations are waiting for when the system is matured.

Even tech support companies did not feel they have internal capacity to hande Win2K speciall ADs and Exchange Integration

There is also the question of minimum requirements which make orgs not to jump into the bandwagon and start upgrading as most clients and Servers will not meet these min specs and only after massive spending on Y2K fixes/upgrades

We are indirectly support Microsoft Technologies in the market. Let us do the work we have studied so hard to do instead of chasing the certificates

Kudos to Microsoft

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Mike Pittsburgh

I fail to understand the stigma behind this "Paper MCSE" sindrom. Why do so many of you feel so insecure about being anything more or less than you are. There are a large percentage of MCSE's who are working in the field and have hands-on as well as their piece of paper and are true MCSE's. But why do you hold it against someone who has yet to acquire a position and has just started out by getting the certification just as the Electrical Engineer went out and got his B.S. before anyone would consider him/her for a position. Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

this is certainly good news for me. i hv passed 5 exams, and was one step away from being an MCSE in NT4.0. Now at least I can continue with my persue of MCSE, without the urge and feeling of being "pushed" to upgrade to MCSE2000. Great move and a very welcoming one! Thanks evry much Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jeet IL

I appreciate microsoft's decision not to retire the nt 4.0 certification. i worked hard to attain the mcse status and it's nice to know that i will not lose that distinction. However i will go for Win2k mcse certification, but i don't have to push myself for the deadlines.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Aaron S. Seattle

I'm happy to here that Microsoft decided to changed there policy. I currently hold the NT 4.0 MCSE and am more then half way through with the 2000 exams so I hold the MCP for 2000. This would have left me right in the middle. I still plan on studying just as if the deadline were still there. Good move!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Bear Anonymous

I am quite happy with the decision from Microsoft. The idea of separate MCSE certifications for the 4.0 and 2000 track makes perfect sense. I have been an MCSE for over 4 years, and have been aware of the socalled "paper" MCSE issue for a long time. When you hire an MCSE for the big jobs, you make sure they have the experience to back it up, otherwise let them start at entry-level til they get the experience. An MCSE alone, even for the 2000 Track is not enough of a reason to hire anyone, especially as a Network Admin. I had five years real-world experience (2 with Microsoft) before I decided to even get my MCSE. You will always have "Paper" MCSE's because you will always have people who want to get the top money without having the skills to back it up. The problem has never been the MCSE cert, the problem has been people with no experience trying to get the high paying, high responsibilty jobs, and interviewing with managers who have no clue how to see if they have the stroke.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Mike McDougall MCSE, MCP+ Dallas, TX

Response to: "Retirement of the NT 4.0 paper MCSEs was the only thing that was going to make the effort I put into my 2000 MCSE worth it," said Chris from Texas. Chris should get over it! Skill and experience are what matters, not paper. When he hires people he shouldn't assume that 4.0 MCSE's are "paper MCSE's"; rather he should ask the tough questions that will weed out the "paper tigers" from the real deal. When I started in this business I knew "squat", but I was determined not to be a paper MCSE and worked day & night to be good enough to get a chance to prove it. Microsoft's decision totally Rocks! I have every intention of at least passing the 70-240 by the deadline, but it's good to know I'll still have a "degree" wothout the pressure to make it happen while trying to bring my employer's network into the 21st century. Anyone who is a 2000 MCSE should stand tall because they are the first to get there and are on the cutting edge rather than playing "catch up".

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Ray Briggs MCSE Raleigh NC

I resent the comment from Chris in Texas as to paper MCSE's. I am a working MCSE 4.0 not a paper MCSE as he thinks MCSE 4.0 are. I am working towards my MCSE 2K but I have a life and the pressure I am putting on my family to get my 2K MCSE was causing me problems at home. I can now have my life back, spend time with my family and still continue with my training. Microsoft is doing the right thing with this move. I spent thousands of dollars to get certified and felt as though I was being robbed but my MCSE just thrown out. Anyone who feels that they are cheated because they have their 2K cert needs to get a life. The network I work with will for at the next 18 months be and NT network 2K is still in the testing stage so why do I need to push. So Chris in Texas hire 2K only MCSE's and you miss a lot of GREAT NT MCSE's.
MICROSOFT IS DOING THE RIGHT THING!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Ouch!
My sacrifice to get W2K MCSE this year was wasted. I could have kept my MCT intact AND kept working. What about the MCT's who have not passed the W2K exams and are teaching the W2K courses? Now MS needs to reexamine the MCT program AGAIN! This is terrible news for those of us who responded to the call and good news for all you SLACKERS!!!!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 GoodGuy Irvine

Ouch!
My sacrifice to get W2K MCSE this year was wasted. I could have kept my MCT intact AND kept working. What about the MCT's who have not passed the W2K exams and are teaching the W2K courses? How off is that!!! Now MS needs to reexamine the MCT program AGAIN! This is terrible news for those of us who responded to the call and good news for all you SLACKERS!!!!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

A politcal move on Microsofts part not to seem as Monopoly driven in the IT certifications market as they are ALL ACROSS THE BOARD IN THE IT FIELD. Probably pressure from not only it professionals venting their frustrations but also from government investigations into MS illegal monopoly practices. Whatever the motivation at least the outcome seems positive for us the hardworking, certification driven it pros.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jon Canada

Good news! We are still on NT 4.0 and not planning to migrate soon, so for me to try and take the WIN2K exam (by just hitting the books and lab) without real life situation experience just for the sake of maintaining my MCSE is just plain dumb.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Georga

Smart move, will slow down my move to Linux and others I imagine.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Dwayne chicago

it is diappointing that chris from texas made the statement that he would overlook the nt4 mcse in favor of the win2k mcse when hiring. basing hiring on just certs alone is short sighted. people need to calm down and realize that win2k mcses will be looked upon as an "upper level" mcse, it's like comparing
a bachelors degree to a masters degree, both are valuable but the masters has the edge.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Harrisburg

I see that some people are against the not retireing the 4.0 that is fine. For those of us that have lives and children this will give us or lives back untile we can regroup and re-certify in 2K. By having both a 4.0 and 2K MCSE we have two different certs to put on or resumes'.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Kevin Harlingen, Texas

That's cool. But now what happens if you want to get a MCSE half in 2000 and half in XP like earlier discussed by Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 nisam NYC

Being a MCSE I agree with this Decision, but I think they should extend it a Bit. They should look at the Cisco cert and have a Refresher test to recertify a NT 4 MCSE. I think this would allow them to weed out some paper MCSE.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I really get tired of listening to all the whining surrounding this, if you know your profession cold and can perform then that is what matters. All a certification does is get you a interview. If a MCSE can't do the job the the employer will get rid of them.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 vaidehi india

i am very very glad by the dicision of the microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Sebastian Argentina

Im MCSE in Windows NT 4 and in Windows 2000. I took my first Windows 2000 exam in April 99. At this time there was no one braindump for Windows 2000 exam. At this time there is a lot of sites with the actual questions. I know a lot of people who read this papers and passed the exams. I think that Microsoft is not avoiding the NT 4 problem of MCSE who never installed a server.....I think that the same problem is happening with Windows 2000 track....I dont know why Microsoft is not doing something.....I think that is because Microsoft needs MCSE in Windows 2000.......they have only 47K of people certified......

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Clive Mahoney Plymouth, UK

Good news, but how about a rethink for those of us who took (and failed) the 70-240 accelerator 'too soon' because of the Jan 2002 deadline? - at least give us our results!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Great decision from Microsoft.....Takes the preasure off of having to get the 2k cert right away. Gives two distinct certs now.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Charles Ellis Lafayette, La

Good News!. In fact, this arbitrary deadline had just the opposite effect on me that Microsoft had intended. To obtain my MCSE in NT 1.0, I set up a network and thoroughly studied each test requirement. I practiced and made sure I understood the details of the element I was studying. With this Win 2000 deadline, I no longer felt th need to thoroughly understand the material, but just wanted to pass the test and get it over with. Now I feel I can take a little more time to digest the material. Thanks for this wise decision.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Mike Eatontown, NJ

What's all the fuss about? I have the 4.0 MCSE only and haven't finished 2000 yet. I teach at a Microsoft site. If there are "paper MCSE's", and they get hired, they won't last anyway. You still need real skills and brains to keep a job. If an employer gets fooled once or twice by hiring a paper MCSE, then he will just be a little more careful the next time. This policy now gives everyone a chance to decide for themselves what OS and types of certifications they need.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 NT MCSE Boston

I agree with those who applaud Microsoft for its decision. The assumptions and leaps made by some Win2K MCSEs (e.g., "many [NT MCSEs] took brain dumps to memorise answers ... half can't even install server, or add a nic") are just a case of some kind of sour grapes, clearly, and such statements are offensive to me personally and most likely to other NT MCSEs who work hard in the field and worked hard to obtain their MCSEs. I do still plan to upgrade to Windows 2000 certification, but at least now I can do it at my own pace, and at my company's own. We have eight servers; two of the peripheral ones are Win2K, the rest NT 4.0. As we gradually move to an all-Win2K network, and I have the appropriate experience with Win2K under my belt, THEN I'll upgrade my cert. I am very glad and relieved that in the meantime I will still be able to call myself an MCSE. Thank you Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 VALKUIL Anonymous

It is a pitty that we(all the users in the world) do not understand that we are the boss and not the F..K A..HOLE from Redmond

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 fambo United kingdom

I would like the upgrade exam 70-240 to be extended also ,to middle of next year
due to the release of XP and many other
microsoft products ,We have not been able to have a life the extension would help.
It will also enable many more mcse4 to upgrade to mcse 200

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Al Plechaty Ohio

I am very pleased with the fact that Microsoft has decied not to retire the MCSE NT 4. I spent many hours studying and preparing for my MCSE. I am currently pursuing my 2000 MCSE. I thought it was unfair to make the NT 4 MCSE a null cert. The next step would have been retiring the 200 track in a couple years then everyone has to pay to get recertified again. I believe Microsoft made the right choice.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 RALPH POISSON MARYLAND

Thanks Microsoft. Many of us are too busy to continue immediatly upgrading.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Big Joe Anonymous

I think Microsoft made the right decision by not retiring NT 4.0 since 80% of the Corporations will not migrate for another 2 years. Overall, its time to obtain other certs than Microsofts'.

Big Joe

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Someone was complaining about all the paper MCSE's with the 4.0 track.....do you really think those same brain dumps aren't available for 2000? MCSE is just one tool in understanding a candidates worth.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Felix Jacob U.A.E

A right decision from microsoft.Even though there are some Braindump MCSE's in the market, most of them won't survive in the real production environment.I am so glad that i have got some time to do my certification in 2000.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 MCSE 4.0 Orlando, FL

To all those worried about the 'Paper Tigers' from the MCSE 4.0 world not getting weeded out: My company was pushing its employees to get certfied under Windows 2000, despite the fact that we run a predominately Windows NT 4.0 network, and the likelihood of it remaining an NT 4.0 for the next 12 to 18 months is quite strong. So, for me to study for a series of exams based on books, study guides and small home demo machines just to meet some artificially imposed deadline from Redmond, that is what dilutes the MCSE title. Yes, I will continue to work towards my Win2k certifications, but now I can do so at my own pace, and more in line with the needs of my network.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Wicus du Plessis South Africa

Brilliant decision from Microsoft. Not all NT4.0 MCSE's are paper MCSE's, some of use worked very hard to attain this qualification.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jeff Pennsylvania

I worked very hard for my mcse and couldn't believe M$ could invalidate it. I'm also not a 'paper' cert and really resent those crybabies who keep sounding like a broken record. Thank you for almost appreciating all the time my family will see me again!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 BeAsTy_BoY MN ZONE

ACHO KE DEVIAM ERA IR FAZER MENINOS EM VEZ DE ANDAREM A FAZER MCSE´S....mICROSHIT cERTIFIED SYS DRUM......LOOOOOOOOLLLL

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Joe Washington

To those criticizing the decision due to the so-called "paper" MCSE 4.0 issue: a solid hiring process is what it takes to weed out those without the experience to back up the cert. I'm glad MS recognized that, even though I'm still going for my MCSE 2K upgrade. Also, versioning certs parallels reality since many large companies still use NT...

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 JimBo Indianapolis

Good Idea! While I work more as a developer now than I ever did as sysadmin, its comforting to know that the hard work I did in attaining my MCSE was not all for not. I don't think that employers should look just at certifications just to qualify potential employees. Experience in the field should be a primary factor. The company I work for has many sysadmins, however, few of them are certified. They are still very knowledgeable in their field.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Adil Elkhawad Simsaa San Antonio, TX

Very Thanks for Microsoft , Because that it must be the leader Company of IT.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jun Framil Philippines

A wise decision from Microsoft Certification and Assessment Group. Many companies here in the Philippines are using NT 4.0 and have no plans to upgrade for the next two years!!!

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Avtar UK

I am glad that commonsense prevailed in the end. I am sure learner will feel like investing in training in next versions with a feeling that it is worth the effort if the qualification can stay valid for the time and efforts spent on this

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Nawar Aljanabi Turkey

Of course it is a very good decision it will push all the NT MCSEs to start working on W2k certifications and other new MS certs. because they now know there effort wont go with the winds. Thanx Microsoft.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 NT4 MCSE WIN2K MCP London

I sympathise with there now seemingly being no distinction between mcse's but microsoft stated that from april you will be known as mcse on "whatever version". This will not be overlooked on your resume. as for the comment on Brain Dumps... Come on guys and girls, how many companies employ a £40k per year MCSE with NO experience? I think not. Accreditation is nice and looks fancy, but if you aint got the DO then you aint gonna earn the DOLLARS.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jon London

Excellent, the effort I put into getting the NT 4 version was worth it. Now I can earn a second MCSE to put on my CV to show proficiency in both O/S's. Like many I'd been planning to keep the exams I'd taken on my CV, all be it in an adjusted format. Now I don't need to.
I can understand MCSE on Win2k's disappointment, but as time goes on the MCSE on NT status will become less valuable, and the next generation of MCSE's will force us to upgrade to keep up with technology. Win2k MCSE's haven't wasted their time, those who have upgraded have now got two certs instead of 1, and those who took the entire exam will only have had to do that anyway.
All I can say about 3.51 MCSE's is "Bad Luck"

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 John P Marshall Scotland

The retirement of quallies was always a marketing ploy. The market isn't buying. The ploy is "modified"(scrapped). Microsoft marketing are professionals.

Fri, Oct 12, 2001 Jason California

I've seen several comments about how the 4.0 certified are just paper MCSEs. Well, to those people...what makes you think the 2K certified MCSEs are any different? I can't believe people are bickering over such a trivial issue...MCSE is a status symbol as I've said in other comments...do you really think those letters will help you get your work done? I think not. Who cares if somebody used Transcenders, CNE Quizzers, brain dumps or whatever, their true test will come when its time to do the job...if they can't hack it...certified or not...they're gone. So a big congrats to all you paper and non paper MCSE 2K peeps and a big woohoo for all the still certified non paper and paper 4.0 MCSEs. Oh and BTW, just so we don't get too cocky...the MCSE 4.0 and 2K tests are still some of the easiest certs out there because there is no hands on component like CISCO and RHCE. I would much rather see the MCSE program go that route...that is the only sure way to weed out the paper from the non-paper.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 John So. Cal

Glad to see someone woke up and figured out NT4 was still around and will stay for a very long time. As to those that feel that there are to many NT4 "Paper MCSE's", guess what? The day the first Win2k test came out, was the same day the new Win2k Braindumps came out. You'll get the same papers as before. As always Experience counts more than paper.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Jose Medeiros Silicon Valley

I worked hard for my 4.0 MCSE and MCT. I am working even harder to get my 2000 MCSE.I am glad that Microsoft is keeping the 4.0 MCSE title, It just means that a MCSE with experience still has a lot of value and if they have there 2000 MCSE then all the better.

JM, Vice President, NT Engineering Association: www.ntea.net

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Herb California

I believe that Microsoft never had any intention of retiring NT 4 at the end of this year

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 T Pham San Jose,CA.

Microsoft should include MCSE for Windows XP???

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Gary Anonymous

Thank-you very, very much Microsoft. I worked extremely hard to achieve this certification and I resent all comments by those who accuse some MSCEs as simply paper MCSEs. Who gave you the right to judge the level of expertise or lack thereof that someone may hold. You don't know me or the effort I made to get there. It was a great acheivement for me and NOW I have faith in the course that Microsoft has set before me. I am now encouraged to add to my certification and move forward...WITH Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 benrock Anonymous

Do this means being an NT4 MCSE, I don't need to upgrade to Windows2000? I'm fortunate not to do that earlier. I had been thinking about MS will release its WindowsXP track soon. :)

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 7 of 9 Borg Cube

I was hoping we could assimliate all NT4 MCSE's into the collective and use Microsoft's technology to further Borg conquests in this quadrant. I guess resistance is not futile.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

It's a bad news for all the MCTs, CTECs, test centres and other training providers. We are expecting more and more people will seek training to retain or re-obtain the MCSE credential. Now, we have no more hopes. As the economy goes worse, no one can afford unnecessary training. In my opinion, All MCSEs should be asked to re-certify every two years!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 David Orlando, FL

I'm happy with Microsoft's decision, also with the facts that there will be a determination of NT and/or 2000, I'm still working on my track to move my cert up to 2000 by the end of the year, but with going to College, working full time and still having to work on my Solaris Cert's this will give me a breather, if I need it.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Alan Torrance, CA

Thanks Microsoft! I think it makes a lot of sense to allow MCSE for NT 4.0 to continue. Many people still use it. And upgrading to another platform can be a huge undertaking. These are separate platforms, so why not separate certifications? It also speaks for the longevity of NT 4.0.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Wyoming

Bravo microsoft. The decision to keep the NT MCSE proves that somebody did listen. This move in no way belittles the W2K MCSE certification as most employers know. I have never been threatened by the "paper mcse", experience and talent gets and keeps the job.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Jaya Jayakody Australia

It's wonderfull

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Peter New Jersey

Way to go Microsoft! I am glad that I can keep my NT4 Certification, I have worked very hard for it and I want to keep it. I am working on Win 2000 now and will attempt the 70-240 exam by the end of the year. This is very Important to me. I am 44yrs old and am looking for a career change into the IT field. I financed my own education in computer networking and am very serious about about this change. Being a paper MCP or MCSE is not what I had in mind, but when you have no "experience" its tough. How do you get the experience if you do not get the job. I am serious, serious enough to take a very big pay cut to start my IT career. I will pay my dues just give me the opportunity, let me obtain the "Experience"!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Miami, FL

If you got certified in fixing Kenmore model X123 refrigerators, you can always fix those refrigerators! Of course new ones will come out and it's up to you to get certified to fix the new ones, but why take away a valid certification for a product that will still be around. Let that fridge mechanic decide when it's time for him to move on. He'll figure out soon enough that the X123 model just isn't around anymore and he better start getting certified on the Y456 model before the next guy (or gal) does. Don't de-certify him.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Mike MN

Oh no, the paper debate again. It's pretty naive to think offering a new test of tests would settle the issue. Certification intends to provide an assurance of expert product knowledge, but the product doesn't always act as specified to begin with. Proctored exams are costly but they work towards solving the problem of competency. Significantly less people will be able to obtain certifications in this scenario but would it be beneficial to the industry? I will upgrade by the end of the year, but I also have a need for it now as we are migrating slowly to a native 2k environment. It's not an easy task with 50,000+ users and 2500+ servers. Many firms don't have this same need to upgrade their systems or certifications. I think it's a wise decision because it respects diversity and business objectives. My company doesn't keep me on just because I have an MCSE, college degree or any other type of title, but I still choose to keep current because this is my current profession. Hiring managers are being lazy when they base their analysis solely on a title or they don't have any technical knowledge to evaluate candidates with. Microsoft didn't create this problem.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Raleigh NC

I spent $3000 taking a crash course because I don't get to work with 2K everyday, I thought I was going to be SOL at the end of the year, now I find that my panic and worry were for nothing. Thanks for nothing. Now I have to find a better job in a worse economy and my two MCSE's mean even less....

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Larry Little Rock, AR

I think its great that Microsoft has decided to keep the NT4.0 MCSEs. For one reason lots of companys are still using the NT4.0 format. And I will personally still obtain my W2K certs as well, just now I dont feel so pressured.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 sam los angeles, ca

This is an extremely bad decision on Microsoft's part. Let's go back a year and see Anne Marie McSweeney's countless reason, why we needed to upgrade to W2K MCSE? What happend to those reasons? I am very fraustrated with this decision. Microsoft can be accused of fraudulent behavior. Pushing entire MCP/MCSE community to upgrade to W2K for past 21 months and then the decision to keep NT4 just 11 weeks before is not a professional behavior. Serious, dedicated MCSE's has spent untold amount of time and money to upgrade their MCSE's to W2K and it proves to be for nothing, with this childish decision. Microsoft just devalued thier MCSE certification beyond any measurement.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I think its a Great attitude for Microsoft to take , I am working as an IT administrator and haven't lost skills since becoming MCSE only gained more .
This to me is Microsoft recognising that fact , Bravo Microsoft Brave

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 moe utah

I love this! I am a controls engineer and my company uses Nt with other software for controlling processes and robotics. I do not admin networks.(I dont have to listen to people whine about their computers all day, and I'm paid better.) My cert and skills are what gets me the jobs while other non-certed folks walk. The idea of changing to win2k would be a major pain that serves no purpose. As for the people that thought that the 2k would get rid of thoser terrible "paper Cert" people, all I can say is HA! HA!. I was one of those once, up yours!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Mark Atlanta

Paper MCSE or not if you know your stuff it should matter the value. You still had to put in the time and learned something of value while studying...I hope!!!
I think that was a wise decision on Microsoft. I am now encouraged to get W2K MCSE or at least go for the XP certification. I am even considering MOUS too.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Moin M. Jaffer Portage, MI

I am really exited to hear this!!! (really i am jumping up and down)
I worked so hard to earn my MSCE.

Thanks Microsoft :)

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Ira Bell Florida

A registered nurse has to continue their education yearly to hold their license. It wouldn't have been a bad thing for Microsoft to not honor the NT 4.0 cert anymore. The current NT 4.0 MCSE's wouldn't have been shafted in this deal, since microsoft offered the free test voucher. If you hold the skill and ability, all you would have to do is prove your working knowledge of the Win2k operating system. Though there are new questions about the areas of Win2k, the orig. concepts of TCP/IP, subnetting, network infrastructure are all the same. I feel that Microsoft has made a poor decision by reversing the retirement of the NT 4.0 cert. Now, people see a weakness in the running of the corp, and understand that with a mob mentality of "We can do whatever we want to do".. it is possible to change the actions of a multi-billion dollar corp.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 anonymous Austin

i'm glad that Microsoft "saw the light." i earned my mcse+I in Sept. 1999-when i realized that within 18 months, my certification wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on, i was ticked off. some of the comments on this page imply that those of us who haven't upgraded yet are slouches-i take offense at this. i was laid off in April in the 4th round of layoffs at my company--only my boss was left. it took 2 months to find a new job (at 1/3 less salary). and i feel lucky to have that job now as many of my colleagues haven't been so lucky. i'm glad i now have the opportunity to continue pursuing advanced certification w/o losing what i so recently achieved.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Wayne Lexington

People are going to whine no matter what you do but i think MS made the right choice. I worked VERY hard for my certification to just turn around a year later and lose it just because another version of windows was out. NT 4 is still VERY active in the real world and will be for some time. I do have plans to study 2000 as well very soon.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Chris Hollywood, FL

Microsoft has finally wised up. I studied and worked very hard to get my MCSE 4.0 certification, along with all of the other cert's I have achieved. For them to say I am no longer certified because they have released a new version lowers its value more then the paper mcse's. I am studying for the accelerated exam, and will take it in November. I'm glad that I don't have to rush through two more tests before 12/01. Thanks.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Ivan Gomes Chicago

Microsoft, I guess if you did not make this decision, come 1/1/2002, there will only be 50000 MS certified people rather than the currently 1 000 000+ . I knew you couldn't take that hit.... I have 8 years NT experience (since ver 3.1) and I'm an MCSE on NT4 and planed to stay that way for a while... I'll only upgrade when I have enough real life experience on Windows 2000 or may be XP by the time I start my next series of exams... I knew you would see things my way ;-)

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 NT4.0 MCSE from Ontario CANADA

great decision and i am thrilled. i worked very hard for my mcse nt4.0 and value the work that i put into this. not all of us studies brain bumps to achieve certification. some of us studied and worked hard with labs and the actual product. i will continue to focus, on completing my mcse 2000 track. bravo Microsoft!!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Chuck Dancy Lakeland,FL

Great !!!!!...We ( MCSE 4.0's ) can breathe now....

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Tony Cleveland

I'm damn glad of it! I believe they made the right decision. You know, all this talk about paper MCSE's....not all of us who obtained MCSE status took shortcuts. I for one want to know what the hell I'm doing and I labored very hard working with the software and studying the Microsoft program curriculum. So please, keep in mind that when you make those condescending comments, you're insulting all of us. I'm also in the process of studying for 2000 certification.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Alaska

I have both NT & 2K certifications. For those who whine about 4.0 papermcse's, there are plenty of 2k as well. And if you hire a papermcse, you can flaw no one but yourself.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 k. Smith NY

Hey There may be paper MCSEs but there are a lot of MCSEs that worked hard to get their certification(the majority) If your company hired someone just because they had a few letters after their name..then who is to blame...if I interviewed you at my company...I could tell if you knew your stuff in 5min..MCSE, Cisco or not..
Microsoft made the right decision...if you got the W2K MCSE then fine, less work for you later but remember XP is here...how many W2k MCSEs would jump to XP...Where does it end ? at least now the market will decide Which MCSE it needs the most. 47,000 and counting

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 mfoy Philadelphia

To those crying about the MCSE 4.0 being paper MCSEs go take the W2K certs and join the few, the proud W2k MCSEs there is a difference. But don't bellyache about MSFT realizing they alienated professionals and businesses alike with the arbitrary policy change to decertifyNT 4.0 MCSEs. the same should happen with the policies forcing of the adoption of W2K and XP.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 MCSE 4.0 New York

It takes time and MONEY to certify. This is a very good decision by Microsoft. AD needs to grow up. As Windows 2000 becomes as popular as NT 4 I'll get my 2000 cert, or XP cert.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Michael Mid-Atlantic

Great Decision Microsoft!!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 MCSE2000 Philly

Way to back down Microsoft!!!! i hired a MCSE 4.0 the other day who couldn't add users to a domain!!! i was hoping that we could get rid of all the paper MCSE's, but i guess i should have spent my money on taking the netware test instead i won't make that mistake again!!!!!!!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 David Chagollan Oxnard,CA

i think that this is a good news for all mcse holders because now we can take out time to really learn win2000 and not rush to take the exam without practice in win200. Thanks Microsoft!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 2000 mcsejeffd lti louisville

Thank you micrsoft for making my 2000 mcse not worth the paper its printed on
I thought the whole reason behind this was to get rid of paper mcse's that came with nt4 mcsce's. I worked very hard to get my 2000 cert.I think you need to reconsider this decision or do something for the people who recertified before the deadline

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Kurt Colorado Springs

I APPLAUD the decision Microsoft has made, it took guts. Now they are not only giving experienced MCSE's (and others) the continued industry recognition they have paid for and deserve in most cases, they are leaving the training decisions where they belong: In the marketplace AND the companies that use the products. Thank you Microsoft for a vote of confidence to existing MCSEs and leaving the next steps up to those that use the products!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 MCSE 4.0 and Win2k Atl

I hold 4.0 and Win2k. Re: the comment that 4.0 MCSE's learned from Braindumps...there are just about as many Win2k braindumps..plus Troytec..so don't kid your self. I know of many paper Win2k MCSE's

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

It is pure old common sense!!! Why did it take so long to figure it out?

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Joel Reeter Missouri

If a person earns a degree no one has the right to take that persons representation of that knowledge. It takes a lot of effort to earn a NT 4.0 MCSE+I. If you continue your education and expand your knowledge to Windows 2000 you have a better base to learn W2K and now your employer knows you have a deeper knowledge of these systems. No one took your masters away did they because you did not learn another subject? If Microsoft wanted to do something to let the people who are not secure enough just to be called a MCSE then vote for some continuing education to maintain your cert. MCSE+I 4, 2000, MSEE, CCNE, A+, NET+, ETC.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous California

good move by microsoft. they just realized that alot of their customers are still running nt 4 and not many of them are ready to migrate to w2k yet. the customers will decide when an os is still pertinent not a mandate by microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Roger Ohio

I think its great. I am very pleased that Microsoft wanted to "...do the right thing."
People who are so concerned about "paper" MCSEs shouldn't be. Employers don't hire technicians who are only certified, but those who are skilled. Demonstrated skill have always come first.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Wayne Virginia

I think this was a good decision.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Abdul Jalil Sydney, Australia

Microsoft has taken the appropriate decision. Simulteneously they should extend the date line for 70-240 Win2K Accelerated Exam as long as the MCSE NT 4.0 certification continues.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Calif

Yay!! All that work to learn NT pass the MCSE tests and then learn they were being pulled. What a killer. Now at least I won't have to send anymore threatening letters to Microsoft!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anon Anonymous

Maybe a stupid question, but does it mean those mcp holders can now do the upgrade exam until up to April 2002?

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

I am glad that my NT 4.0 MSCE will stay. I also know that there will be some that you just can not make happy. I do wonder why Microsoft chose to wait until this time ( almost last minute), to see if the numbers would rise for w2k certifications?

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 MCSE California

Fugures People In Louisville would be able to do that. I however do believe my certification is worth more that the paper it is printed on and am unhappy to hear other professionals downplay the effort of some. Yes, true the 4.0 track has recieved a lot of help to get the certification however the "paper" itself is just a guideline of knowledge. It doesn't take into consideration actual hands on experience. This is a fact we will all have to deal with.

Am it to be turned from getting or pursuing my MCSE in 2k? No...I want to get it more than ever now. It will stand me apart from the 4.0's because of initiative to further my own career and education as opposed to some who felt they were being forced to upgrade.

I believe the decision by Microsoft was a little late however doesn't change my overall view of certification. A few bad apples have really killed some opportunities out there however the only real way an employer knows you can do what you say you can do is by putting an individual in the position. (Probation usually 30-90 Days- This is why Louisville)

To all others Good Luck and hope the decision helps you at least!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Jay California (eh?)

I am not surprised by this move, which only a self-absorbed moron could protest. I and many of my colleagues spent enormous amounts of time and cash to both learn the NT product set and the MSFT mind-set behind their deployment. I had no intentions of attempting Win2K certification just to have it as some have done. Instead, I have studied, taken workshops and learned Active Directory and Exc 2k features./functions as I have needed them in real life. Being still able to teach Official Curriculum while I transition to 2K makes sense all round. Let the marketplace decide!!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 reemis coltrane my house

this is vrygood. now i dont half to study and rememberd all them pictures. i like to play with computers butt i dont like to learn. my boss says i is ugly and cant read well. but i got this good job and make alot a money. thanks microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anita Canada

I am very happy with Micrsoft's decision not to retire the NT 4.o Cert. Worked very very hard and spend lots of money and time on that certification!!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Charles Alaska

I'm really split about this news. On the one hand, it's good that Microsoft has recognized that NT 4 is a viable product in the industry, and that it needs to keep htat certification. On the other hand, it makes it that much harder for those of us who busted our hump to get the Win2k MCSE to distinguish ourselves from the pack now. Still, having TWO MCSEs on my resume can't hurt!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Paul Seattle

Being a Win2K MCSE will still be worth the work, to seperate you from the paper MCSE 4.0s, since it will be listed seperatly.
There will be fewer paper 2K MCSEs anyway now that the job market for IT pros has slowed down, so I am happy the time and money spent on the 4.0 is no longer going down the toilet, at least it will show depth on your resume.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Greg Delia Jupiter, FL

I thank you Microsoft. I have worked very hard for the MCP and MCSE certs. I always look up to you Mr.Bill Gates and for what your company stands for. I feel that all of us MCP's and MCSE's are like family, but your were letting us down by pulling our certs from us. I was being pushed to go with other co's like Novell. Microsoft, you have won me back. Stand by us like we stand by you.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 W2K MCSE Anonymous

new 70-218 as requirement for mcsa?? is that the 70-217 with a diferent name?? or will it mean that an mcsa will be qualified to "managing a windows 2000 environment" and as a systems admin while a mcse wont?? i think ms should think about this one and automatically certify existing w2k mcses.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Jim Victorville, CA

I think Microsoft has made the done the right thing. I know there are a lot of professional test takers out there, but most of us worked hard to attain certification and it would be a shame for all that effort to go for naught. It releives a lot of pressure to know that all the effort and expense won't be worthless after a couple of years. I, like most, am preparing to take on the W2K track. But now I don't feel the need to rush and memorize things so that I can pass a test. I can take the time to really learn the product and be a "productive" rather than a "paper" MCSE. Kudos to Bill and the gang.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Ken Johnston Deptford, NJ

I am currently a "MCSE of NT 4.0" since 1998 and still disappointed in Microsofts decision.
I am currently studying for the 2K certs and feel everyone should have to keep their skills current so the certs will mean something to the industry. Right now no employer cares if you have a NT 4.0 certification. I plan on taking the 70-240 next month and have been working in the industry for five years.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 JC Cincinnat

I'm breathing a sigh of relief! I put the 4.0 core to bed but didn't make the cut-off for the rest. Now I can finish 4.0 and continue my upgrade to w2k without the frantic rush.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Dominic Michigan

I put a lot of hard work into obtaining my NT 4.0 MCSE and I was prepared to do it again to upgrade to 2000 because I didn't want to see all that hard work vanish. However it would have been at the expense of getting my MCSD, which for me is more important in my new career path. With the new change I can now pursue my goal of becoming an MCSD without having to try and hold onto what I already had. Eventually I will upgrade, but it will be after I get my MCSD. Thank you Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous MCSE From Dallas

Once again Microsoft goes slicky by making my recently earned MCSE on Windows 2000 less valuable. I will consider Novell next time.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Those of you who keep bringing up weeding out paper MCSEs using the 2k track are only kidding yourselfs. The number of paper MCSEs under 2K is growing. If you can't see that, you are living in a fantasy world. All certs prove is one has the ability to learn not be 100% qualified in the every environment inwhich they are planning to work. How many of you, could actually do all those things your employer advertised they wanted when looking to fill the job. Let the employer define what skill sets required to meet his/her needs. Who knows, they may be willing to train. I hail M$ decision to have multiple certs.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Stan Albany, NY

I am overjoyed at Microsoft's decision. I am an MCSE NT4.0 and I previously wondered why Microsoft would do this when no other profession would take away someone's hard-earned credentials (eg CPA's & MD's). Way to go Microsoft!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 doug Rockton, IL

Ok...I saw it on a re-read. YEAH!
-Doug
MCSE on Microsoft Windows 2000
MCSE on Microsoft Windows NT 4.0
Network +/A + /CCA/CNA

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Cincinnati, ohio

I would like to thank MS for making the
right decision. I spent a lot of time and
effort earning my MCSE. I will now
persue 2000 certification, knowing it won't be taken away in a couple years.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Cynthia Whittaker Burlington, Ontario

Excellent Decision! I think the business world has enough common sense to decide for itself when certification is necessary and on what track! As far as paper MCSE's go....please....surely the business world can figure out for itself who can actually perform the work required and who can't! It's pretty obvious...if not maybe the people doing the hiring should look at how they recruit.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 W2K MCSE Anonymous

Although it makes sense, the issue is not whether NT4 MCSEs are going to lose the certification or not. The issue is what's the point of upgrading? What's there to gain? W2K MCSEs feel betrayed. It's quite unfair for NT 3.51 MCSEs as well.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Doug Rockton, IL

How about a way to differentiate between MCSE NT and MCSE 2000??? I hold both, but I certainly want a way to differentiate myself as someone who took the time and effort get the 2000 cert!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous MCSE from California

I am thrilled that they did this. I will still probably recertify in at least the server exam for 2000 but at least I don't have that rush to the finish feeling that I had yesterday.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Esther McKinney Lakewood, WA

I appreciate Microsoft's decision not to retire the NT 4.0 certification. I worked hard to attain the MCSE status and it's nice to know that I will not lose that distinction.
Kudos to Microsoft!

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous New Haven CT

This is a smart move for Microsoft. Now they can also bring out XP track courses and certifications with out having to retire/eliminate the 2000 track. It all seems much more professional to allow the market to certify as needed rather than by mandate from Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 MCSE Louisville

The purpose of loosing the 4.0 MCSEs was so many of them took brain dumps to memorise answers half can't even install server, or add a NIC. As long as they carry the name MCSE my MCSE title won't be worth the paper its printed on. Now because Microsoft chickened out and left them certified I will have to prove my abilities with degrees or CCNP. This makes getting your MCSE worth about as much as A+ entry level test.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Good Decision. I took a break from college to get MCSE ceritified about two years ago there is no way I could take time off from college again

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Very good decision from Microsoft.

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Anonymous Anonymous

Thank you very much

Thu, Oct 11, 2001 Nick Clark Springfield, IL

Good deal all around. I don't feel so "pushed" into doing the Win2k MCSE. I'm currently studying for it now, but I'll definitely letup a little since the is no 12/31 deadline. Maybe I can get some of my life back now.

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